About the "Dragons and Dragonmasters" section

[MiaOne]

I don't remember any of the armor or weapons being called "Dragon God"? O.o

[GhaleonOne]

I faintly remember it. The only guide I don't have is EBs though, so I can't check it. It's not in EBC though, for sure. I just finished it, and made sure to collect all the items possible, and that didn't come up.

[Pogi]

I dont think there was a weapon like that. Unless someone got some Screenshot...

[Alunissage]

Okay, I just pulled out my EB guide to check this. I'm not seeing anything like Dragon God. There are a few Goddess items, but that's it. There are the three Dragon pieces, of course, and none of them can be sold. All of them have extra attributes -- the Armor also boosts ATK, the Helm enables Rest Litany, and the Shield adds Counter-Attack. However, none of them are found in the actual dragon caves -- the Helm is in Zophar's Domain and the other two are in the Dragon Ruins. That last almost makes sense if you're arguing that they're the Shield and Armor, but why would Zophar have a piece of dragon equipment?

There's also a Dragon Staff, found in Althena's Tower. If you believe that the above items are actual Dragonmaster equipment, the existence of the staff is rather interesting, especially with it being found in the Tower. Maybe some past Dragonmaster was a mage...

[ilovemyguitar]

why would Zophar have a piece of dragon equipment?

Well, with Lucia held captive, he was pretty connected to Althena's power.

[DragonmasterDan]

I think that fan made Ruby plushie was the best. The original Nall plushie was alright, but it looked very bland. I'd have to say the fan made Nall plushie was better in some respects. I would like to have the Alex punching puppet, but it doesn't look as nice as the Ghaleon puppet.

The picture that was on ESPs site (that now finds its home here on Lunar-net and can also be found by searching through GameArts stoe) of the Nall plushie doesn't really do it justice, Here is a much better picture of it that gives you a better idea of what it looks like.

A Dragonmaster needs the approval of the four dragons, but I don't quite recall the equipment being a necessity. Maybe one of them was a warrior-type who wore the armor, and the other was a magic-user who had robes instead. KF

That's something that changed from TSS to the remakes, originally the items were a requirement (remember you can't even enter the grindery without all the Dragon Items including the Wings equipped to Alex), Shigema and company decided to modify that, also the Dragon Armor was the last item needed to be a Dragonmaster, not Althena's Sword which means it's not really a traditional "Dragon Item" if you follow the remake's storyline.

[Alunissage]

Well, Alex was also unable to defeat Ghaleon before getting the sword. Maybe that made a difference. *shrug*

I'm pretty sure that wasn't the first Nall plushie. Someday I'll scan in the pic at the back of the Japanese TSS guide, which shows a slightly diferent Nall plush.

[Kizyr]

There's also a Dragon Staff, found in Althena's Tower. If you believe that the above items are actual Dragonmaster equipment, the existence of the staff is rather interesting, especially with it being found in the Tower. Maybe some past Dragonmaster was a mage...

Zounds! You're right! This forces a re-think of my previous assumption.

But the Dragonmaster still has to have the power to protect the Goddess. KF

[DragonmasterDan]

Well, Alex was also unable to defeat Ghaleon before getting the sword. Maybe that made a difference. *shrug*

I'm pretty sure that wasn't the first Nall plushie. Someday I'll scan in the pic at the back of the Japanese TSS guide, which shows a slightly diferent Nall plush.

There's another Nall plushie? The one I have is one of the ESP 1994 tagged Nalls. I didn't know another licensed one exists. But if one was made around the time of the Japanese TSS guide (1992) this is news to me. I really need to start picking up the Japanese guides since I have the artbooks and such out of the way.

[Alunissage]

I've never seen it other than in that pic, but it's definitely a bit different from the ESP one. Or at least it was last I looked. I'll check it against my Nall when I get a chance.

...really, REALLY need to get that scanner set up...

[Silver Phoenix]

Someone get on the horn, and tell GameArts to release new Nall and Ruby plushies! That is a better picture of the Nall plushie, Dan. How about a nice big Quark/Fidy plushie? That would be one ugly thing.

[Angelalex242]

This is a theory I had. And this whole thread is a giant huge spoiler. Then again, it's also filled with a bunch of theories.

The Dragon equipment Hiro finds is indeed Dragon Equipment.

But that Dragon equipment is Green, and none of the 4 dragons are green.

But Star (what I call the Star Dragon) is green. Hence, what Hiro finds is the Dragon Equipment Star made. And it has absolutely nothing to do with the equipment the 4 Dragons make.

So Hiro, by obtaining those items, and then defeating Star in single combat...didn't become a Dragonmaster because the Dragonmaster is unique to Althena. Instead, he became Star's Champion.

And Star isn't Althena's Dragon in the first place. He is and always has been Lucia's Dragon. Lucia's a goddess too, so she can have her own dragon if she wants one.

What's the point of becoming Star's Champion?

Well, the Dragonmaster seems to have this funny habit of ending up the lover of Althena. (At least Dyne did...and Alex did...maybe those twin female Dragonmasters was just Althena experimenting.).

Again, however, Althena and her system of choosing a mortal lover and champion is gone, but Lucia's system is still very much in place...and her system involves Star's Trial. Which Hiro did successfully pass.

I further theorize that, Despite claiming Althena's Power and, so far as I can tell, never giving it back...(Lucia needs it to revive the Blue Star...earth...which is many times the size of the Silver Star...the Moon.) she also needed more. The power of love naturally flows into the Power of Creation. (What do you think making a baby is? It's Creation.)

Star, however, was very protective of his goddess, and came up with an idea that only people who could defeat him were worthy of his Goddess. (Or, possibly, only people who could defeat him would have the physical strength and stamina to prove an adequate mate for a deity). Defeating Zophar wasn't good enough for him. Zophar had to be taken down as a team effort. Star demanded Single Combat.

So. Hiro beats Star, becomes Star's champion, and goes on to Earth to live...on a completely barren planet (till he and Lucia fix that)...with no other living being save his love. That's fairly devoted of him, isn't it? But again, Lucia needs that from him to do her job. Why'd she leave, then, without him? She had to let Star do his job. She did figure Hiro'd pass, but, well, goddesses don't exactly bother with engagements, so Lucia had to make him do SOMETHING.

Lucia is not Althena, though, and I predict she does not become mortal to die with Hiro. She's more dutybound then Althena was. So she lives (eventually) alone with whatever (presumably immortal and divine like her) children she has by Hiro on the Blue Star till she can get the mortals migrating back.

And that's my theory. Which is only...somewhat based in fact, and the rest derived from circumstancial evidence.

[Alunissage]

Pretty flimsy evidence at that. There is none whatsoever to call Dyne Althena's lover. A look of understanding is not a declaration. She wasn't human when Dyne was dragonmaster. You also need to decide which storyline you're using. In SSSC, which is the one in which we see Althena, she gave up being a goddess before meeting Alex and it had nothing to do with him. He was just a fringe benefit of being human.

I don't think there's any reason to assume Lucia never gave Althena's power back. When she takes it, Hiro and co lose all their magic. However, their magic returns halfway through the fight with Ghaleon. For that matter, she clearly didn't have much of a grasp on it since Zophar was able to capture her.

Almost everything you've said is pure speculation. Regarding the color of the armor, I'll have to check and see whether the dragon is green in both versions of EB.

Lucia is also not expecting to see Hiro. She's surprised when he knocks on her crystal. There also isn't a clear indication in the games of whether they stayed on the Blue Star alone or imported people, only that at some point after Hiro joined Lucia the place turned green. I'll have to check in the interviews and such to see if there's any official information about what happened after that point. I vaguely recall something about Hiro never returning, but that may have been some fan speculation.

As far as the Star Dragon's reason for testing him, it seems most likely that he didn't want Lucia diverted from her duty for anything trivial. If he's also the Phantom Sentry in EB which confronts Lucia at Bandit Butte (and there are certainly strong resemblances), his priority is to make sure she's doing the right thing. If he scolds her for coming to Lunar, it's unlikely that he'd let anyone go and interrupt her while she's waiting. (Of course, in EB she also used the power that was collected for the revival of the Blue Star to decrystallize Hiro, so there may well be another several thousand years for it to build up again to the level required for the revival.)

[Angelalex242]

First, let me say I've never seen or played the Sega CD versions. I can only work off what I've played, and that's the PSX versions. Still, I theorize extensively.

Dyne and Althena:
That's based on the theory Althena reincarnated herself as a baby using herself as mother and Dyne as father. Being inhuman I doubt matters. (Remember, Ruby points out to Hiro Lucia isn't human when she arrives. Hiro could care less. I don't see why Dyne'd care either.) Also, that whole jealousy thing of Dyne and Althena Ghaleon had going. What on earth ELSE could he have been jealous of, considering what he wants from Dark Althena when he gets her.

Hiro gaining powers back:
That's not Althena's power they're using. That's the 'power of humanity', and independant of Althena's power. Hence, there's no reason for Lucia to release the power. And I didn't see any indication she did. By complete accident, Lucia, by taking Althena's power, accomplished what Althena wanted...making the human race independant of her power. That couldn't really happen till Lucia swipes magic, and humanity gets it back under its own power. So Lucia never releases Althena's power...cause humanity no longer needs it. Also, Lucia's failure to use it right doesn't mean she'd release it. If somebody handed me the fastest race car in the world, that doesn't mean I'd win the Indy 500. Likewise, Lucia simply was inexperienced with the tools of Althena's trade, and she just botched using them.

Star's Motives:

Yes, but if he really really didn't want Lucia interrupted, he could've simply lied and told Hiro that the teleporter was deactivated...so sorry, experiencing technical difficulties, come back in a hundred years when...oops, you're dead of old age. Hence, my 'testing Hiro' logic. It's easy for a being of Star's power to keep mortals off the Blue Star if he tries.

Lucia's Surpise:

...True, she is. I remember that part now. Then again, Lucia does tend to doubt humanity as a whole repeatedly throughout the game. Following my own theory, she had to make Hiro take Star's Test...but having no faith in humanity as usual, she figured he'd fail.

[ilovemyguitar]

Actually, while there's no serious evidence that Angelalex's ideas are true, there's no serious evidence that they're false, either.

In the Lunar 2 Epilogue Finale, Lucia never actually says, "Oh, Hiro, I had no idea you would ever come here!" She could have just as easily been overjoyed that he passed the Star Dragon's trial. It seems quite unlikely that Lucia didn't know about the Star Dragon Tower and it's capabilities.

And as far as Dyne being Althena's lover, we haven't been told that they were, but we haven't been told that they weren't either, so either interpretation of their story is just as valid as the other.

With Hiro and Co. regaining all their magic power during the fight with Ghaleon in Lunar 2, I thought it was made pretty apparent that they'd regained it through the power of humanity, not through Althena (which was the point of the whole game's story). At that point in time, Lucia still had Althena's power, and was imprisoned by Zophar because she wasn't willing to use it. Then, after the fight with Zophar's first form, he took the power from her, transforming himself into Omni-Zophar. Hiro and Co. defeat Zophar, and it's never explained where exactly Althena's power went after that. Did it die with Zophar? Did it return to Lucia? Is it floating around in the ether somewhere? We don't know for sure, and most likely won't know until a game set after Lunar 2 is made.

Angelalex, I really like your theory. It's logical, and well thought-out. It even fits with Lucia's comment at the game's first ending (before the epilogue) about how she's incapable of believing in the power of humanity. If she has Althena's power, but is incapable of sharing Althena's belief in the power of humanity, then it's only natural that she would eventually re-instate a system very similar to the one Althena had in place on Lunar prior to the events of Lunar 1.

Go you.

[Kizyr]

There's no necessary reason to fixate on the Dragon Equipment, though. The Dragon Equipment isn't essential to becoming a Dragonmaster--only the approval of the Four Dragons is (and I suppose acceptance by the Goddess, and perhaps the Dragon Angels if we're looking back to TSS). Alex just happened to be the right type of person to use the equipment they gave.

Upon the epiphany I had earlier in this thread a few weeks ago, I realize this now... The Dragons could have crafted any sort of equipment based on their own power. Perhaps one Dragonmaster had the White Dragon Tiara, Red Dragon Robe, Blue Dragon Braces, and Black Dragon Staff? Maybe if I tried, I'd get the Black Dragon Blazer, Blue Dragon Polo, Red Dragon Khakis, and White Dragon Fedora? There are different possibilities, but all this is making me realize that the Dragon Equipment itself isn't the important thing: it's the approval of the Four Dragons and duty to protect Althena. KF

[Alunissage]

Nuts, two more people posted while I was working on this. Well, I'll edit as needed.

First, let me say I've never seen or played the Sega CD versions. I can only work off what I've played, and that's the PSX versions. Still, I theorize extensively.

Yes, but you should not cling to your theories when actual material doesn't agree with them.

Dyne and Althena:
That's based on the theory Althena reincarnated herself as a baby using herself as mother and Dyne as father. Being inhuman I doubt matters. (Remember, Ruby points out to Hiro Lucia isn't human when she arrives. Hiro could care less. I don't see why Dyne'd care either.) Also, that whole jealousy thing of Dyne and Althena Ghaleon had going. What on earth ELSE could he have been jealous of, considering what he wants from Dark Althena when he gets her.

I refer you to the story Laike tells in SSSC:
Something went wrong when the Goddess Althena began the transformation.
...and I had to use every bit of my power to help her change.
Dyne only helped her become human because something went wrong. In SSSC continuity, anyway. He's not her parent, and he's not her lover. Pure fabrication, unless you can produce something to back it up.

As for what Ghaleon could be jealous of, haven't you noticed that you're referring to two people in that "couple"? Ghaleon cared about Dyne. He was jealous that Dyne shared something with Althena -- the acknowledgement that Lunar was suffering from the goddess's presence -- that he didn't share with Althena. Why is this difficult to grasp? Ghaleon's intentions are fairly clear throughout the dialogue following the raising of the Fortress, and they're all about power. I don't remember the exact line and there isn't a screenshot, but the strategy guide says that a side point of this conversation is that Dark Althena will croak after all this. Yeah, that's the sign of love, all right.

Hiro gaining powers back:
That's not Althena's power they're using. That's the 'power of humanity', and independant of Althena's power. Hence, there's no reason for Lucia to release the power. And I didn't see any indication she did. By complete accident, Lucia, by taking Althena's power, accomplished what Althena wanted...making the human race independant of her power. That couldn't really happen till Lucia swipes magic, and humanity gets it back under its own power. So Lucia never releases Althena's power...cause humanity no longer needs it. Also, Lucia's failure to use it right doesn't mean she'd release it. If somebody handed me the fastest race car in the world, that doesn't mean I'd win the Indy 500. Likewise, Lucia simply was inexperienced with the tools of Althena's trade, and she just botched using them.

This screenshot rather implies Zophar has it, no? And the later scene is about how Humanity's power is stronger than his...not that he's lost any of it to Lucia's defection.

Star's Motives:

Yes, but if he really really didn't want Lucia interrupted, he could've simply lied and told Hiro that the teleporter was deactivated...so sorry, experiencing technical difficulties, come back in a hundred years when...oops, you're dead of old age. Hence, my 'testing Hiro' logic. It's easy for a being of Star's power to keep mortals off the Blue Star if he tries.

This sounds a lot like fitting something into a pet theory. The reason for his existence seems pretty straightforward. And he's THE Star Dragon. No indication what his name is or if he has one.

Lucia's Surpise:

...True, she is. I remember that part now. Then again, Lucia does tend to doubt humanity as a whole repeatedly throughout the game. Following my own theory, she had to make Hiro take Star's Test...but having no faith in humanity as usual, she figured he'd fail.

Forcing game elements into your pet theory. Lucia states pretty clearly to Zophar that she does consider the Power of Humanity to be stronger than anything. No reason for her to second-guess that later. I'm pretty sure that she uses the past tense when talking to Hiro about not believing in humanity and in him, though I'll have to look it up when I get home.

[Lunar Eclipse]

And, uh, yeah, the idea of Laike being Luna's child by Althena is just super freaky. That's, like, ten times worse than the Oedipus complex, being your own mother and all. Ew.

[drumlord]

No comment on most of this stuff. My opinion is already part of others' comments. But can we please call the Star Dragon "the Star Dragon." That's all I ask.

[LUNARverse]

As far as female leads in RPGs go, I can name several without even giving it too much thought. There is Summoner II, where the lead is the reincarnation of a goddess and empress of a kingdom (her name escapes me), Terra in FFVI, There are also the more recent mana games, though not featuring vastly developed characters, allowed you to choose between a male or female at the start. In sword of mana particularly, she was written a hero's role in the story because in the original version(Final Fantasy Adventure for gameboy), she wasnt playable on her own, she would merely join your party.