In This Thread I Explain Why This Game Isn't Canon.

For discussion of Lunar: Dragon Song (Lunar: Genesis), the only Lunar game on the DS
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In This Thread I Explain Why This Game Isn't Canon.

Postby Jenner » Tue Mar 05, 2019 7:03 am

Greetings,
Lunar: Dragon Song is not canon and here's why:
It goes against all pre-established lore of the series. Everything else but Dragon Song establishes that beastmen were the oppressed peoples of Lunar and that the Goddess Althena has never really been in love before.

In order for Lunar: Dragon Song to be canon the bare minimum that would need to be true is that the existence of an independent citystate/kingdom with a majority population of beastmen existed at around the time the game took place and that Althena loses her memories of her life as a mortal between incarnations. However, not only are neither of these facts true the exact opposite is true and supported in multiple places throughout the series. Since none of the conditions required for DS to be canon are established or referenced in the previous games or other Lunar materials, not even in DS, there is no way this game can be canon.

For a game we universally view as a giant -Fatal Hopper- you to the fandom Ubisoft could have been petty enough to establish these things in the game. They could have even written in that there was a conspiracy to cover up the existence of the beastman kingdom and that forgetting Jian is what caused Althena to decide to retain her memories across incarnations thereafter. They didn't. And since they didn't (a mercy) we can say it's not canon.

So yeah, it's not canon.

I know my spouse, Kizyr, is the Dante of this fandom (if you don't understand what I mean when I refer to Kizyr as our Dante just click this link) and that he says it's canon but not only do I not care he is also wrong.

Further more Kiz's continued insistence that DS is canon upsets me and he knows it upsets me and he is trolling.
And he learned it from me.
So this is technically my fault.

Anyway, it's not canon and I could and should end the thread here because this game really doesn't deserve any legitimacy. But instead I'm going to resolve any arguments that might crop up from the trolls and fools who keep insisting in this obvious lie with a simple compromise:
Dragon Song is not canon in the current Lunar universe. What Dragon Song is is not a prequel to the other Lunar games but rather the first game in a Lunar AU series that will never exist.
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Re: In This Thread I Explain Why This Game Isn't Canon.

Postby Alunissage » Tue Mar 05, 2019 9:34 am

Don't think I agree with you on all this, or even most of it, but I'm supposed to be asleep right now so I'll just say that the only thing about Dragon Song that I can think of offhand that seems truly impossible for me to reconcile with the series as I know it as Titus's transformation at the end of the game. That makes NO sense.

Incidentally, while Jian appears to be in love with Lucia, I don't recall all THAT much evidence that she felt the same way. Taking a hit for him, yes, but she was effectively immortal and he wasn't. But, I mean, Luna clearly feels completely bonded with Alex; Lucia was Jian's business partner. She might have gotten pretty fed up with him after a few years as a human.

I'm not sure what you mean by losing her memories -- if you mean that as Luna she didn't remember being Lucia, I don't see an issue with that. I'd assume that when she's in her usual Goddess form she remembers her experiences as a human, but not while she's a human (or other creature! I'm sure TSS mentions that she takes nonhuman forms!). Don't remember if it's said one way or the other, but I always had the idea that Lucia was Althena's first incarnation.

And now I really had better stop for the night. More later, I hope.

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Re: In This Thread I Explain Why This Game Isn't Canon.

Postby Jenner » Wed Mar 06, 2019 3:00 am

To me it's clear that Althena's romps as a mortal don't remember the antics she got up to the previous times she came down as a mortal and that her mortal incarnations don't know that they're Althena. But it's also clear to me that when she's back to being Althena, she does remember. And we could exhaustively argue back and forth about whether or not DS!Lucia actually loved Jian or how serious she was about that love but it is established in DS that she does have feelings for him enough to be in a dating-type relationship with him after everything is over. And I'm not sure if casual sex-positive DTF Lucia is what you're trying to sell here but it's an interesting interpretation and I'll take it.

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But if she did love him, well that's a problem because loving him at all for any length of time goes against everything established by pretty much every other Lunar property. It breaks everything. Luna loving Alex being the first time Althena has loved a human is canon. So either Lucia didn't love Jian and was just trying to get laid (see above) or Althena forgot about her feelings for Jian when she became Althena (why did she date him after the fact then?)

And there is still no explanation or justification for a beastman citystate/kingdom anywhere. (Honestly I really don't like that Lunar: Dragon Song spreads the message that if oppressed people came into power they would oppress their oppressors but that's just a whole other thing.)

Lunar: Dragon Song is canon in the AU it's created, but it cannot exist as canon in the Lunar universe we're familiar with. That's just facts.
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Re: In This Thread I Explain Why This Game Isn't Canon.

Postby Alunissage » Wed Mar 06, 2019 5:19 am

I don't see why we need to assume Lucia and Jian had a romantic relationship of any sort at all. But she would definitionally outlive him, being immortal. I don't have a problem with widows remarrying. And heck, I know for a fact my grandmother was far happier with her second husband, my step-grandpa, than she was with my grandfather.

There just isn't enough there there to compare Lucia/Jian with Luna/Alex. I'll need to reread the dialogue, but I don't think Lucia ever says anything that would imply a romantic attachment to Jian rather than a brotherly one. There are lots of kinds of love, and trying to reduce them all to romantic/sexual or nonexistent is a mistake IMO. (It's also why other than this one I stay out of fandom -- I find the near-compulsion some fans have to put all characters in sexual relationships very offputting.)

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Re: In This Thread I Explain Why This Game Isn't Canon.

Postby Jenner » Wed Mar 06, 2019 10:28 pm

I guess I shouldn't be hellbent on making it horny because the penchant in fandom to make everything sexual also irks me at times. However, casual sex-positive DTF Lucia is hilarious to me. I'm probably not going to get around to doing a whole lot of researching or reading into the dialog because I'm lazy which means you could come in here a week from now spouting all manner of nonsense that you've just made up (bonus points for altering screenshots!) And I'd just have to be like ":/"

I find it especially amusing that we have so many screenshots of every other Lunar game, you can browse through whole sections of pretty much every other Lunar game but Dragon Song doesn't get that treatment. Which means I can't just go to the end of Dragon Song on this site and show the end where it implies Lucia and Jian attempt to date.

Luckily I do have access to an LP Camel Pimp did (bless you, Camel Pimp you absolute mad woman) so I can post some evidence to back up my claims!

The Goddess Althena doesn't remember her life as Lucia and doesn't remember Jian. Additionally when she was Lucia she didn't know she was the Goddess.
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Gabryel: Jian, it's no good... Now she is awakened again, she can't remember ever being Lucia. Just as when she was reborn as Lucia, she had no memories of being the Goddess....

You: Jenner, one of your conditions for this game to be canon (Althena forgetting her past lives and their feelings) is met by this!
Me: Not exactly, my friend. In this moment, Althena doesn't immediately remember being Lucia which means she's forgotten any feelings Lucia had for Jian. Luna also didn't immediately remember Alex and had to be reminded. But again, in order for Lucia's feelings for Jian to not matter she would have to have kept forgetting them, and she is reminded. So unless she can forget them at will again (which, damn) her reawakened memories of her life as Lucia and the feelings she had for Jian remain relevant. We still don't know if those feelings were romantic love though so let's keep going.

Here's where I show, to the best of my ability, that Althena totally gets back her memories of her life as Lucia and the feelings she had so there's no debate over whether or not that happens.

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ANYWAY,

Lucia had feelings for Jian and those feelings were romantic in nature.
This one is great because a lot of the "evidence" is male characters talking about what Lucia's feelings are/were without Lucia's input. Male writers are great.

Ignatius: Oh, you poor thing. Why, I think there is a tear in my eye! Love is all powerful, is it? Or eternal? You fool! The only all powerful, eternal thing in this world stands before you now! Althena herself!
Jian: You're wrong!
Ignatius: Love steals everything. Don't you see? You may believe that you are giving that single-minded love of yours, but in truth you are stealing everything with it! See the truth!
Jian: What?! You think that I've been... hurting Lucia?!
Ignatius: Face reality, whelp. How do you explain the fact that your precious Lucia is here, now, reborn as the Goddess Althena?
Jian: Oh, Lucia... Can't you remember, please! Remember why you chose to become Lucia!

To me the above exchange implies that Althena became Lucia to fall in love. Or, at least, that's what Jian thinks.

Ignatius: Well, this is very moving. But it all seems a little one-sided. She has moved on! Perhaps it is time we settled things between us, then? There cannot be two Dragon Masters in the world, after all. I am more than enough alone.

The above statement from Iggy implies that Lucia did have feelings for Jian but she's "moved on." Iggy might just be saying this to toy with Jian's feelings though. What is clear in this exchange is that Jian does have feelings for Lucia (but that neither of these men really care about her, IMHO. However, that's a whole different argument!)

Anyway, behold, the first bit of evidence from Althena's side that Lucia has feelings for Jian:
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She reacts when Jian gets blasted. This is a common anime trope to indicate feelings towards a person. The trope reinforces itself when Althena takes a blast meant for Jian:

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Alun already pointed this out and maybe Althena is just a really good person who will take an energy blast to the face for someone for no reason other than that she's a good person. (People who will take punches for strangers rule btw.) But ugh... I'll come back to this.

Later in the scene Althena fades away (don't worry, we'll get to that) and Jian screams that he loves her but she doesn't exactly respond in kind. Maybe there is something to Alun's theory that Lucia doesn't give a -Fatal Hopper-. Let's keep going.

The biggest indication that we get that there is some kind of continuing relationship between Jian and Lucia is at the very end where it's clear she's rushing into his arms.

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I am a very weird person. I cannot base normal human behavior off my own behavior. I do not behave like a normal human being. (I am literally an opossum Kizyr dug out of the trash one day and wished to be made human.) Still, that's what I've got to work with so here we go. Folks, even if I haven't seen a much loved friend in a very long time I am not prone to rushing towards them and flinging myself into their arms. (And I have next to no understanding of social norms and personal space.) Perhaps such a thing is common for other people, perhaps I would resort to such a thing in the ideal situation. Like, say, if I had secretly been a Goddess the whole time and kidnapped by a weirdo then rescued by-- look, this is silly. Lucia is a teenager, and I don't think like a teenager any more. But there is no way she can be ignorant of Jian's feelings for her and if she does not reciprocate those feelings then it is RUDE of her to jump into his awaiting arms like this and continue to lead him on. This seriously is not the kind of behavior one has with friends. I suspect she likes him back because anything else is kind of cruel.

So, back to Alun's argument that they're just friends, it's just like... ugh fine. There's no scenes of them dating, or holding hands, or kissing, so yes we could argue back and forth about the nature of these exchanges forever, But, for my money, we need to respect the tropes that are being pandered to here and recognize what this awful game is very badly trying to communicate to us. Which is that Lucia loves Jian back (the game uses common anime tropes to establish this) and decides to stick around as a human and date Jian for at least a little while.

And again, romantic love of this nature isn't something Althena was supposed to be familiar with until Alex. In general this game really does just try to steal a lot of TSS/SSS's thunder. Which is why it being the first game in a new Lunar AU series suits it just fine. But seriously this game cannot be canon in the current Lunar universe. In addition to just going against so much previously well understood lore It also throws a lot of what is established in TSS/SSS into question because it's ass.

Because hey, remember when I talked about Althena fading away and that we'd get to that? It's time now.
The epiphany that is reached by Luna in TSS/SSS is instead a revelation that Lucia has in DS, Why does she continue doing her thing then? Why doesn't she retire after the events of DS? Why do the events of TSS happen at all? Did she just forget? This is dumb.

Althena: The strength to forge the future... it must come not from a single, all-powerful being... but from each one of you... alive in the world today.
Jian: What do you mean, Lucia?
Althena: A being like me... in charge of everything... is not good for the people as a whole. This world should be ruled by... all peoples... together... Ruled equally... The beastmen... and humans... and even the Vile Tribe... must all live together, side by side...
Flora: But... we can't live without you... Oh Goddess! We need you!
Althena: No, my child... You do not. Think of all you have learned. Each of you are already, in your own way, just as powerful as I ever could be.
Jian: ...
Althena: A single... all powerful... supreme being such as myself... is no longer needed. It is my fate to... fade... away...

By the way, Alun, your theory that Dragon Song is the first time Althena took mortal form? Incorrect according to Dragon Song.
Peles: So... is this allowed, do you think? The rebirth of the Goddess Althena as a human...?
Titus: It is not my place to say. But, I can tell you this. This is not the first time that our Goddess has been reborn in such a way.

That's pretty much the limits to the amount of work I'm willing to do about this. I might write up a big informative effort post about the tropes Lunar: Dragon Song uses to communicate its message and meaning one day but that's absolutely not happening right now.

Thanks again Camel Pimp for playing this game and posting up screen shots and dialog. You're a hero.

In closing, please people stop this game cannot be canon and also it's bad.
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Re: In This Thread I Explain Why This Game Isn't Canon.

Postby Alunissage » Wed Mar 06, 2019 11:44 pm

I read through that bit of dialogue of Peres's after I posted that, so yeah, I was probably wrong there. I don't 100% cede this because there are other translation oddities, plus "in such a way" is so strangely specific that it almost implies the opposite. Like, that he's trying to hide something behind a technicality.

Don't remember where I got it, but I have a full HTML file of the English script, which I can send to you if you would find it useful. Tbough come to think of it, you probably already have it; I suspect I grabbed it from stuff posted with that Let's Play or something. My memory is a sieve these days.

I had totally forgotten that Lucia runs to hug Jian, probably because I haven't actually seen the end of this game since I played it in Japanese when it came out. I've played nearly all of it in English and read the last few scenes that I haven't played, but that does miss a few things. I'd still stubbornly argue that that that doesn't imply True Love, any more than Luna hugging Jessica and Mia at the end of SSS implies they're now a trio. And yes, Jian may think that she's in love with him, but that's not exactly unusual for certain types of ego. (FWIW, I'd probably do the hug thing myself, which I know doesn't match my prickly online style much.)

I definitely agree that the game is not well done, not least for stuffing all of the Lunar 1 lessons into it several centuries early. That's why I'd really like to see it remade into a game that DOES make better sense. I don't think all that much would need to be changed, but as you note, the relationships and epiphanies that Althena has would need to be turned down quite a bit into foreshadowing rather than redundancy. Or, at the very least, some bit of text added that due to the bizarro situation of her prematurely incarnating to escape her evil Dragonmaster her memories of this whole situation ended up wiped after she returned to being a goddess -- sounds dumb, I know, but I'm thinking of the Dragon Angels in TSS warning the group that Althena's memories of being Luna would cease to exist when they woke her up. Alex is able to circumvent this by playing the harp, but Jian ain't no musician. (Maybe that's why she didn't bond to him as closely as she did to Alex...) Anyway, I think it'd be possible to turn this game into something that actually does fit better with the other games. Until then, I feel kind of obligated as a fan to accept as much of it as possible and make it work, and chalk up the infelicities as mistakes, as sparingly as possible.

I have some thoughts written down somewhere on how Althena taking that hit and temporarily vanishing is actually strategic on her part. Will have to dig them out and post them.

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Re: In This Thread I Explain Why This Game Isn't Canon.

Postby ShugoHanasaki » Sat Apr 13, 2019 12:59 pm

If only I could 100% believe Dragon Song wasn't canon lol
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Re: In This Thread I Explain Why This Game Isn't Canon.

Postby AkagisWhiteComet » Thu May 02, 2019 3:18 pm

My only major qualm with Dragon Song was I feel it was a bit of a missed opportunity with the LUNAR franchise in that it attempted to re-hash the love formula of SSS and EB with new characters when prior games had already established some potential characters to use. Silver Star Story in particular mentions the Dragonmaster sisters Loka and Lina (I believe that was changed for the English script), which would have been interesting to play as. I also believe there is a set of books, or a book, in Damon's Spire (??) that mentions some past Dragonmasters before Dyne.

Also Magic School established LUNAR didn't necessarily have to be a game focusing on a single hero, leading a party, fighting against a major antagonist.

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Re: In This Thread I Explain Why This Game Isn't Canon.

Postby Alunissage » Fri May 03, 2019 5:53 pm

The twin Dragonmasters are variously called Asty and Liza, Alicia and Lina, and Alicia and Laticia. Loka (Gaull) was a different one (though the Blue Dragon in SSS refers to Loka and Lina, changed to Alicia and Laticia in SSSC). The book is in the Vane Library in SSS/SSH.

I want to play as a Beastwoman dragonmaster. Hah, that's what Gabryel should have been.

Edit: Asty and Liza were in EB. Here's a post with all mentions of past dragonmasters:
viewtopic.php?p=59269#p59269

I forgot that the novels actually do mention a beastwoman dragonmaster.

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Re: In This Thread I Explain Why This Game Isn't Canon.

Postby Kizyr » Thu May 16, 2019 9:54 pm

AkagisWhiteComet wrote:Also Magic School established LUNAR didn't necessarily have to be a game focusing on a single hero, leading a party, fighting against a major antagonist.

Magical School Lunar honestly was really great at radically departing from the traditional Lunar formula, yet still really feeling like it was set in the same world. It's why the horrid encounter rate bums me out so much, because it's literally the only thing dragging that game down. Otherwise so much of it is golden. KF
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