DS vs. SSSC

For discussion of Lunar: Dragon Song (Lunar: Genesis), the only Lunar game on the DS
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Angelalex242
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DS vs. SSSC

Post by Angelalex242 »

Kind of a spoiler, here, so...

[spoiler]What does Jian lack? What's Alex got that Jian doesn't have? Why did Althena not choose to die permanently in the DragonSong era?

Otherwise...Lucia and Jian, 70 years post Dragon Song:
Jian (on his Deathbed...):We've lived a long and happy life together...
Lucia:Yes...
Jian:Lucia...will you die with me?
Lucia:Nah. I'm gonna get a better man then you in about 1000 years...
Jian:...*dies*
Lucia:*Reborn as deity* Althena:Well, guess I'll stick it out.

Yes, that makes it sound sort of like Althena's logic fell down a plothole. Cause I think it might've. [/spoiler]
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Post by GhaleonOne »

Eh...

[spoiler]By TSS's logic, I'd agree, and even then there's some discrepancy. But by SSS's logic, it's fine. Althena chose to become human before Alex in SSS. This was seen in the flashback with Dyne and Ghaleon prior to Lunar 1. In TSS, she supposedly made her decision as the human Luna, after the events of Lunar 1.

And to add to this, it seems in Lunar DS that Lucia never knows she's Althena except when she's, well, Althena. At least, that's the impression I got. Luna, after the events of Lunar 1, obviously knew she was Althena, otherwise she wouldn't have made that recording.[/spoiler]
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Post by Alunissage »

I still don't think that the end of TSS was intended to be so final until development for EB was well under way and they'd decided to set it far in the future instead of just a few years as originally planned. In the TSS ending credits, Alex is still Dragonmaster and in the I+II artbook there's a sketch of him as a mature man, still in the armor (him, not Dyne). Not much point of him still being a dragonmaster if there's no goddess left.

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Aaron
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Post by Aaron »

Just cause he has the dragonmasters armor doesn't mean hes a dragonmaster. :P

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Post by Alunissage »

He has the sword, too, and it's pretty clear that that only goes to the dragonmaster. But your objection is spurious; Dyne didn't keep the armor when he ceased to be dragonmaster.

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Post by Aaron »

Alunissage wrote:He has the sword, too, and it's pretty clear that that only goes to the dragonmaster. But your objection is spurious; Dyne didn't keep the armor when he ceased to be dragonmaster.


well why wouldn't alex keep his armor? It's powerful, so is the sword. Plus, after alex there was no other way to become a Dragonmaster, we dont know if previous dragonmasters upon loosing their title, if Althena didn't just zap the armor and stuff away or if the Dragons just took it away. One thing is for certain though in both versions of Lunar 2 Nall has Althena's Sword so, alex did keep it all even though he was not a dragonmaster.

at least thas waht I Think

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Post by Alunissage »

That's "even IF he weren't a dragonmaster". You haven't proven he didn't stay one in TSS. I still think the argument is much stronger in favor of his remaining DM in that game than not. Also, all the books refer to him as the last dragonmaster, but he sure wasn't one for long (if you assume that he was no longer one after Althena became Luna again) and the general populace wouldn't know about all that; in SSSC they don't say anything about it in the epilogue, I think.

Besides, the distinction you're making is academic. If he has the dragon equipment and was made a dragonmaster by Nall, what makes him one no longer? Nothing. He didn't lose his MP in in TSS that we saw (and since he had real magic before becoming dragonmaster, there's no reason for him to), and he keeps the sword (which Dyne didn't). He was still the protector of Luna, ergo, he was the protector of the Goddess -- who only stopped being a goddess because she decided to stay with Alex and presumably didn't feel like being one any more after his death. (Which is still rather dumb since she wouldn't remember him and wouldn't know the difference; she was sacrificed by the developers for a cheap plot twist.) This whole humanity thing was tacked on to SSSC only.

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Post by Aaron »

Alunissage wrote:That's "even IF he weren't a dragonmaster". You haven't proven he didn't stay one in TSS. I still think the argument is much stronger in favor of his remaining DM in that game than not. Also, all the books refer to him as the last dragonmaster, but he sure wasn't one for long (if you assume that he was no longer one after Althena became Luna again) and the general populace wouldn't know about all that; in SSSC they don't say anything about it in the epilogue, I think.

Besides, the distinction you're making is academic. If he has the dragon equipment and was made a dragonmaster by Nall, what makes him one no longer? Nothing. He didn't lose his MP in in TSS that we saw (and since he had real magic before becoming dragonmaster, there's no reason for him to), and he keeps the sword (which Dyne didn't). He was still the protector of Luna, ergo, he was the protector of the Goddess -- who only stopped being a goddess because she decided to stay with Alex and presumably didn't feel like being one any more after his death. (Which is still rather dumb since she wouldn't remember him and wouldn't know the difference; she was sacrificed by the developers for a cheap plot twist.) This whole humanity thing was tacked on to SSSC only.


Look clearly in Lunar TSS Althena gave up her power as defined from Lunar EB when Lucia sees the recording.

Luna = Human

Althena = Godess

Althena - God powers = No god

Luna + Alex = Lovers

Alex = Dragonmaster, Althena is gone hence no Dragonmaster.

WHich makes the reason why there are still dragons even more confusing...since althena's power is gone from her...but

my guess is that yes...humanity has her power...

president in Lunar 2 when Lucia takes altehan's power to smite Zophar, she drains the planet of energy. Including Our Heroes!

when they fight Ghaleon, and ghaleon lets them beat him they have no magic power

so trust me dude

alex was never a dragonmaster after he saved Luna...that was his desire to do...not to save Althena...he is not a "Classical" dragonmaster...

By classical I mean: Dragonmasters purpose is to protect Althena...

He wanted to protect Luna. And his parents. and stop ghaleon...Althena was a mystery to him.

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Post by Alunissage »

1) You're missing the point. I'm referring to what the ending of TSS meant *before* EB was finalized and saying that the ending images in TSS imply to me that not only did Alex remain a dragonmaster but that likely Luna wasn't going to be Althena's final rebirth. The sequel was originally intended to be only a few years later, with TSS's characters playable, and that particular plot point may well not have been decided upon until after changing the setting to be 1000 years in the future.

2) Alex wanted to be a dragonmaster long before Luna was captured.

3) I'm not a dude, and I have no reason to trust your judgment.

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Post by Angelalex242 »

Having the sword doesn't mean much.

Hiro had it, and wasn't a Dragonmaster. He just killed a couple random bosses and defeated the Star Dragon with it, and took it to the Blue Star. What he did with it upon arriving is anybody's guess.

By the way...Luna never COMPLETELY lost her god powers, 0 MP or not.

You can't do things like forseeing Zophar's return, Lucia's return, and that Hiro would be there beside her 1000 years in advance without tapping into SOME god power...Granted, foresight may be ALL she had left, but she definitely prophecies things.

Then again, so does Damon in SSSC. Prophecy isn't a unique talent to the Goddess. That said, Luna has no other way to be calling prophecys like that.

As for my original query...

[spoiler]How on earth did I who never play the SegaCD version get THAT mixed up? But yes, quite correct. Althena's decision has absolutely NOTHING to do with love, in SSSC. It's a conscious rational decision between her and Dyne...or, from Ghaleon's point of view (at the time) the nuttiest possible thing she ever could've done.[/spoiler]
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Post by Alunissage »

No, the sword doesn't mean much (although it's perhaps worth mentioning that Nall never found anyone else worthy of receiving the sword after Alex died...an informal dragon trial, perhaps). I'm just making the point that Aaron can't be as certain as he claims. I do think the armor in TSS is more significant, particularly since the lack of it was emphasized so strongly in SSSC.

And yeah, she clearly still had some power, regardless of that green zero. She had to get to the Goddess Tower to make the recording, no mean feat at the end of SSSC. I remember speculating when I first played EB that Luna had made the recording in the Sunken Tower, much closer to Burg, and Nall got it there...actually, no, I don't think that was exactly my theory, but I don't remember it clearly now. :| Something to do with the tower. Of course, I still think it entirely possible that Luna changed her mind after making the recording and just put herself to sleep somewhere out of the way. Wouldn't it be funny if she ended up in a crystal in some tower on the other side of the Blue Star? :o

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Post by Angelalex242 »

I always thought it was something simple. Basically, Nall went full sized, and FLEW her to the Goddess Tower, express mail. Once Alex dies...well, Nall's only remaining alliegance is Luna till the other 3 Dragons show up.

As for Luna putting herself to sleep...if she were gonna do THAT, she would've set herself to reawaken when Lucia did so she could make herself useful against Zophar. Besides, in the note to Hiro, she calls Lucia her only regret about dying. If she'd put herself to sleep, why regret Lucia? Lucia's immortal, she'll be there when she wakes back up...
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Post by Alunissage »

I'm not putting the latter forth as a serious theory (as should be obvious), but I do believe I referred to deciding that after making the recording, hence not matching what the recording says. And given how Lunar's backstory was butchered with DS, it really wouldn't surprise me that much to see her in Lunar 3.

Regarding Nall, do you mean in TSS or SSSC? In the former, he doesn't change size (and in EB she's dressed as the goddess in the recording, not as Luna) and in the latter the tower is underwater at the end of it, and wings wouldn't be much help.

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Post by Angelalex242 »

Oh, it's not COMPLETELY underwater...

Or they couldn't build Pentagulia in EBC.

The top part is still above ocean level...as in EBC.

So, Nall just flew her to the part of the Fortress shown in EBC...the above water part.

Anyways...I like to have some faith they'll let dead people lie, in Lunar 3. Ghaleon and Althena...grant eternal rest unto them, and don't bring 'em back again. It'll probably be 1000 years post EBC, so I wouldn't expect to see any survivors save the 5 Dragons and Lucia. Then again, since developers seems to have a repeating history fetish, it seems unlikely Lucia will survive...as she'll...repeat Althena's history.
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Post by Alunissage »

You mean, the way they let Ghaleon lie after Lunar 1? :P

I don't think you can use EBC to assume that the fortress is above water at the end of SSSC, given the considerable geographic changes in that millennium. Pentagulia almost certainly wasn't built until after Luna's death, since there's no reason for it then. It's more plausible that Nall helped her get there in EBC, certainly, since she's an elderly woman rather than the still-youthful goddess she is in EB's recording. The whole recording thing is kind of weird anyway; it has a rather unmagical sound, doesn't it?

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Post by Angelalex242 »

Yes, but YOU were the one who pointed out Lucia's spells all have technological sounding names in another thread.

And that technology unrecognized is another form of magic.

So, a hologram may be a perfectly reasonable way for Goddesses to communicate...because to them, unlike the rest of Lunar, such technology is simply 'normal' like telephones to the rest of us...and recognizable for what it is.
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Post by Alunissage »

Um, what? It was a comment. That's all. It always seemed strange to me, from when I first played EB in 1999. There is no issue here and no reason to respond argumentatitvely as if I'm somehow contradicting myself in expressing an idle impression. Not everything I say is with the intent of supporting or disproving some theory; I'm allowed to just be a thoughtful fan too.

Besides, if you were trying to make some point you should have asked why I didn't class the recording of the Grindery shooting down Vane as evidence in whatever thesis you thought I was trying to prove. :P (Answer: because I forgot about it. Though the Grindery is more obviously techno-oriented than Althena's Tower [in EB], and there isn't quite as much absurdity in the mental image of it being recorded as there is in Luna facing a videocamera.)

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Post by MiaOne »

Rowr. Hostility.

Anyway I was going to comment on my thoughts on DS vs TSS vs SSSC, but...where is the spoiler tag? It used to be listed in the bbCode tags up top, now it's not. Oh well I'll do my best. Sorry If I'm being incrediably obvious and it's right in from of my face.

[spoiler]
For the record, I hate the humanity tag they stuck on SSSC. TSS had such a raw emotional feel to it which is what I liked about it so much. There was no logical reason for Althena to stay human as Luna, but she loved Alex SO MUCH she made that decision. I've already said before how I hated how they changed Ghaleon's motives from TSS to SSSC as well as DS really is a repeat of SSSC, but if the creators were playing off of TSS' story (which they probably were not) than DS was an original thought in the Lunar timeline. And Ignatius (or Ghaleon, however you look at it) had their own ideas of why they went after Althena. But, then it wouldn't make much sense for Althena to be born as Lucia with the intent that humans should not be ruled by her anymore, just to be reborn as Luna and then decide to give up immortality for a completely different reason now wouldn't it?

DS really did mess things up for me because Lucia seems very fond of Jian...so why didn't she choose to stay as Lucia instead of becoming Althena again? The only thing I can think is that a new threat came into exsistance immedaitely after DS which required Lucia to take devine power again and become Althena...maybe it's what caused the flood? Because she had to sieze power to face a new threat and Jian died and his death moved her to cry...even in goddess mode? I mean, I'd like that explination a lot better. But, I doubt we'll be 100% on something like that, it's just spectulation. It does make a lot of sense though...because in DS Lucia acts like Jian...like they're the same age and maturity level...but in TSS/SSSC Luna is VERY much more mature than Alex and seems to have a motherly protective side to her...maybe gaurding him from potential harm because of a subconscious fear that'll he'll be like Jian? My mind is reeling. It is very interesting that Althena ends up in the hands of a young man near her age and very good friends of one another...it almost seems like Althena not only wants to give humanity back it's power, but maybe she's a little more selfish than that, and wants to experiance love? And die with him? Hm. Hm. Hm. Hm.

As for Alex being a Dragonmaster after TSS. He totally was. Period. :P[/spoiler]
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Post by Alunissage »

[spoiler]Bravo, Julie. Nice theory to tie DS to TSS's backstory. Not only does that idea work to resolve this 1000 year thing, it could work with that lack rather anticlimactic ending. I could see it thus...ten or twenty or whatever years later, Ignatius, who of course didn't die from the fall, has finished his work of molding the Vile Tribe into the Magic Empire, while the Temple of Althena has been converted into schools of magic as well as other learning. Ignatius makes another bid at grabbing the Goddess's power, or simply control of the world without her. Someone, perhaps even Jian (wouldn't it be nice to have a hero who's actually an *adult*?) goes off to fight him, ending in a mutual kill (perhaps due to imperfect control of this new magic that humans haven't previously had). In grief, Lucia/Althena weeps, her tears flooding the world; the Temple, having some of her power, floats. When the deluge stops, the waters drain to show more land than had been there before (the Katarina and Marius zones), but the temple and its surrounding land are still afloat. Beneath their previous location is the Goddess Tower (perhaps a chunk of which got left behind when the temple floated up). Althena decrees that the temple shall continue aloft as the guardian of the tower, and that it should be an institution to teach proper study of magic. Then she banishes what's left of the Vile Tribe to the Frontier and shuts herself in her tower.

I think that's as many loose ends as I can think of right now, though I should probably work the dragons in there somewhere. The dragons would all be young if it were still in Jian's lifetime and might not have the experience to stop the Vile Tribe.

And yeah, the villain returning has been done too, but rehashing is what Lunar's all about. :P[/spoiler]

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Post by MiaOne »

:D

Yes, yes Alun. I believe we have figured it out! :P
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