What changes would you love to see in another remake?

[Greco12]

Incoming lengthy post. Since most Lunar 1 remakes are modeled after SSSC, I'm posting this topic on this board. As much as I love SSSC, there are times when I think they could have gone the extra mile on story changes. The following is a list of changes I would love to see in a hypothetical re-remake.

1. The Black Dragon Fortress/Pao Village: Despite featuring compelling female characters, Lunar 1 was still very much a product of its time, which means like a lot of 90’s JRPGs, it has at least one moment in which it shafts the female characters to give the men motivation to save them. The whole “the sickness only affects your female party members” plot point was terribly contrived and also contradicted by the fact that there were male victims in the village of Pao. Obviously, with gender representation/equality in video games being a hot subject of debate in recent years, this won’t fly so easily in today’s world. Therefore, I would have Kyle and Mia get sick from the Songstress’ song, thus depriving you of a powerful warrior and your better mage. Tempest and Fresca would help Alex, Nash, and Jessica brave the Black Dragon Fortress. Fresca could be a light melee fighter (kind of like Lunar 2’s Jean) who uses a bullwhip. She’d be faster than Kyle, but not as powerful. She could also be the calm, collected type as opposed to Tempest’s hotheaded personality; she could be the one who initially suggests Tempest give Alex a chance to snap Luna out of her trance (before Ghaleon appears and things get really bad). The reason for having Kyle get sick instead of Jessica would be because unlike Kyle she has an emotional connection to Luna and to add some additional conflict to the scene where Luna is hurting the party with her evil song. While Tempest and Fresca are pressuring Alex to kill Luna, Jessica could be the one calling them out on ordering him to do such a terrible thing to his girlfriend (and, by extension, her friend).

2. Further development of platonic relationships: Lunar SSSC focuses a lot on the romantic relationships, but I’d love to see some development of platonic relationships among the party. We know Jessica and Mia are close friends, so I envision them as an example of a harmonious extrovert/introvert friendship, wherein two opposite personalities truly understand and know how to interact with one another without one alienating the other. Also, maybe development of the friendship between Luna and Jessica, since Jessica is the first person that Luna addresses and embraces after she and Alex escape from Althena’s Fortress. Maybe she could be sort of a big sister to Alex as well, seeing as how he skips out on music practice the same way she cuts class? I would love to see Kyle become something of a rowdy but caring big brother figure to Alex, maybe as a result of some friendly sparring matches during downtime. They’re both warriors with strong-willed, assertive girlfriends (especially Jessica), so they would have something in common that would allow them to develop a strong friendship.

3. Plaster-Mel: The way this scene played out always bothered me. Not only does Jessica give in a little too easily to Plaster-Mel’s demand that she join him in death, she doesn’t help Kyle out during the fight. You’d think she’d at least be like “No! My father would never do such a horrible thing!” I would have it so that she at least displays some sort of defiance (“Keep away from me!”) before Kyle breaks the spell and dives into battle. How cool would it be if the two of them could stop quarreling for once and help one another take down a foe? It’d be an awesome moment for both of them, as Kyle would be proving he does care for Jess, and Jess would be standing up to a monster masquerading as her father. This fight's difficulty could be scaled up to pose more of a challenge to two party members if need be.

4. Additional cutscenes of Ghaleon and the Vile Tribe sisters: it’s implied that Xenobia was in love in Ghaleon, so I would be interesting to have cutscenes in-between key parts of the game showing what Ghaleon and the sisters are up to (kind of like how Star Wars: KOTOR would show what the Sith are up to in between key moments of the game). I imagine Xenobia trying to gain Ghaleon’s affections and being brushed-off/ignored because he’s too pre-occupied with his own plans. Or Luna trying to resist Ghaleon (“Just you wait! Alex will save me!” “How could you do this, Ghaleon?!”) as he tries to coerce and eventually brainwash her.

5. Jessica and Mia punch the creeps who are harassing them in Meryod: Something that I think would be funny would be to have Jessica and Mia punching the perverts in Meryod. Picture this: after the party gets separated, you walk into the building where Jessica is and the first thing you hear is her punching a pervert who claims to be “just bein’ furrendly,” only to get dressed down by Jess (“Keep your hands off me, you scumbag!”). When you run into Mia, at first she’s pleading for help. But before you can intervene, she finally loses her cool and unwittingly knocks the creeps into the water. Afterwards, she’d be like, “Did I really just do that?!” and Jess and Nall would be congratulating her on giving the perverts what for. It’d make for a nice warm-up for her giving Nash an epic slap.

6. Ghaleon and co. don’t continue to capture songstresses after discovering that Luna is the one they were searching for: Dumb plot-hole that could be easily written out of the script. Enough said.

7. More dialogue for Alex: a bit of a given. It’s pretty distracting when the majority of his dialogue is “… … …” and characters seem to be making decisions for him (“I'm sure Alex would be glad to help! Let’s go!”). This would be a good opportunity to give Alex more personality. Maybe he's initially the rash type, since Luna claims he tends to jump into situations without thinking?

What are your thoughts on this? What changes would you love to see?

*I think this would certainly less-problematic than the in-game version, where you have two macho guys yelling at you to kill the songstress and "shut her up."

[jay_are]

Yeah, I do find it strange sometimes when I realize that Nash is really the only one that gets to know Luna well enough! Or isn't he?
Am I forgetting anything?
Luna meets Mia, but briefly. Meets Kyle, but drunk. Meets Jessica and spends some time with her on their quest to that island of the fake Dragonmaster. There could be more things happening between the girls in the little time they get to see Luna.
I do like your part about Kyle and Alex too. That's kinda like how I imagine things are in the game behind the scenes, maybe most of these things are left to the imagination through some hints in dialogue. Lunar already has a lot of emotional impact with what it has, even today, only a few brilliant RPGs can stand up to it. But if the writers developed it even more, all the better!

6. Ghaleon and co. don’t continue to capture songstresses after discovering that Luna is the one they were searching for: Dumb plot-hole that could be easily written out of the script. Enough said.

Oh here's a random wild and different suggestion. MAYBE for the sake of Luna getting to know Jessica and Mia better, there should be more happening before Ghaleon travels to burg with Alex? So that the songstresses do still get captured while you're doing these new quests with Luna still in your party, and only return to Vane after all that (they've formed a stronger bond by this point) and Ghaleon has realized that Luna is probably the one so he needs to check with White Dragon. Then Ghaleon travels to Burg with you, talks to White Dragon, and songstresses stop getting captured right after.

Also here's another change, but it's a technical thing:
Every time you make Luna sing a healing spell, she does the same 3 seconds song every time. This gets on nearly everyone's nerves after a while. And especially annoys the people around who aren't playing. People don't usually play games all alone, and people not playing a game tend to get more annoyed by things from the game than the one playing them. So it should be something that sounds different every time. It could be her voice with different 3 seconds clips, or it could be a sound effect, like harps, similar to what you hear after she sings.

This was way worse in the PSP version because they re-recorded the voice clip for that spell, and it sounds worse and exaggerated, while the PS1 / Saturn sounds soft and nice (AND people complained).

[Greco12]

Luna meets Mia, but briefly. Meets Kyle, but drunk. Meets Jessica and spends some time with her on their quest to that island of the fake Dragonmaster. There could be more things happening between the girls in the little time they get to see Luna.

I definitely agree. One idea I had was Jessica asking Luna if she would give a singing performance at her father's mansion (she would have heard her singing voice during the various fights leading up to and including the fake Dragonmaster. When Alex and Luna visit her and Mel at the mansion, Jessica asks Mel if he would love to hear Luna sing (which he gladly obliges). Luna gives a singing performance (with Alex playing the ocarina), and Mel and Jessica congratulate her on her singing. This would replace that added scene in SSH in which Jess botches a cooking job (an unfunny "woman who can't cook" joke that didn't really tell us anything about Jess's tomboyish personality that we didn't already know).*

Luna and Jessica getting to know one another is a big reason why I think Jess should be in the party during the trek through the Black Dragon Fortress, since she has a fairly strong emotional connection to Luna and would be very opposed to Tempest wanting to kill her (she'd probably be like, "Are you out of your mind?! We can't kill her! She's our friend!").

Oh here's a random wild and different suggestion. MAYBE for the sake of Luna getting to know Jessica and Mia better, there should be more happening before Ghaleon travels to burg with Alex? So that the songstresses do still get captured while you're doing these new quests with Luna still in your party, and only return to Vane after all that (they've formed a stronger bond by this point) and Ghaleon has realized that Luna is probably the one so he needs to check with White Dragon. Then Ghaleon travels to Burg with you, talks to White Dragon, and songstresses stop getting captured right after.

As far as Mia is concerned, I can see Luna conversing with her over a spot of tea and discussing Mia's anxieties over becoming the next leader of the Magic Guild. Luna would probably try to build up her confidence and tell her that she may be more capable and powerful than she realizes.

Also here's another change, but it's a technical thing:
Every time you make Luna sing a healing spell, she does the same 3 seconds song every time. This gets on nearly everyone's nerves after a while. And especially annoys the people around who aren't playing. People don't usually play games all alone, and people not playing a game tend to get more annoyed by things from the game than the one playing them. So it should be something that sounds different every time. It could be her voice with different 3 seconds clips, or it could be a sound effect, like harps, similar to what you hear after she sings.

This was way worse in the PSP version because they re-recorded the voice clip for that spell, and it sounds worse and exaggerated, while the PS1 / Saturn sounds soft and nice (AND people complained).

I'd like to add to this by saying the combat sequences could use more voice clips for all of the characters. I'm sure I'm not the only one who got tired of hearing Nash say "Check this out!"

*It's kinda sad how SSH didn't make many changes for the better from a story perspective, and the added-in scenes were pretty unnecessary and didn't pretty much nothing to the story at all. What a missed opportunity.

[Uncle Ramus]

2. Further development of platonic relationships: Lunar SSSC focuses a lot on the romantic relationships, but I’d love to see some development of platonic relationships among the party. We know Jessica and Mia are close friends, so I envision them as an example of a harmonious extrovert/introvert friendship, wherein two opposite personalities truly understand and know how to interact with one another without one alienating the other.

Yeah, I know Jessica and Mia are supposed to be good friends (where did I read that? Was it only in the manual?) but I don't remember the game really illustrating that friendship.

Well, I last played the game in May so I'm probably forgetting about a lot of details, and I really haven't given these a whole lot of thought, but here are some ideas:

Change Luna and Alex's backstory so that they grow up in different households, just to remove any trace of weirdness from their relationship. We don't see too many boys and their adopted sister falling in love irl. Make Luna Ramus' adopted sister? idk

I remember at the end of the game asking myself if Ghaleon really deserved to die. Did he really do anything that heinous? Did he kill anyone? He eventually released all the singers he kidnapped when he could've just slaughtered them, right? Maybe the blood of countless Vile Tribesmen is on his hands, but I feel like I need more of a reason for Ghaleon to be dead. I've only played The Silver Star briefly during a rental in the 90's, but thanks to the internet I know Ghaleon is a more sinister character in that game. TSS SPOILERS/Misinformation AHEAD--> I know he kills Quark. And did I read somewhere that he sends some minions to kill Alex's parents? That seems like a better reason to take him down.

Make the Dragonmaster armor less wimpy-looking. I deserve something cooler after all that work I put in!

And then there's the gameplay which imo needs an overhaul and really is a much more important issue than anything I've just mentioned. I don't know how I'd rework it, though, so for now I'll just say: make the game more fun!

[Shinto-Cetra]

 I know he kills Quark. And did I read somewhere that he sends some minions to kill Alex's parents? That seems like a better reason to take him down.

Your first point is correct, however as for your second: They don't die. They get enslaved (along with all of Burg), but you free them later on. Vile Tribe minions impersonate them at one point.

[Greco12]

Change Luna and Alex's backstory so that they grow up in different households, just to remove any trace of weirdness from their relationship. We don't see too many boys and their adopted sister falling in love irl. Make Luna Ramus' adopted sister? idk

Good lord, yes. Especially considering we're living in an era where some anime explicitly fetishize incestuous relationships, having Alex and Luna grow up in different households would definitely make their relationship less icky.

I remember at the end of the game asking myself if Ghaleon really deserved to die. Did he really do anything that heinous? Did he kill anyone? He eventually released all the singers he kidnapped when he could've just slaughtered them, right? Maybe the blood of countless Vile Tribesmen is on his hands, but I feel like I need more of a reason for Ghaleon to be dead.

I think what might help Ghaleon's characterization would be to make him less of the cackling "I'm so evil" villain, and more of a "My intentions are for the good of this world!" villain. It's true that his motivations are made to be more sympathetic in SSSC, but it doesn't come through in the dialogue all that well. "Tsk tsk, Dragonboy." It would definitely be a matter of rewriting the script a bit.

And then there's the gameplay which imo needs an overhaul and really is a much more important issue than anything I've just mentioned. I don't know how I'd rework it, though, so for now I'll just say: make the game more fun!

I agree on this idea as well. Lunar's battle system was never particularly innovative to begin with, but in today's world it could definitely use an overhaul. Depending on what platform they choose to go with, I'd say it would need a graphical update as well (SSH's graphics were perfectly fine for a portable system). As long as it retains the colorful aesthetic, I'm cool with it. Didn't SSH give you a run ability when you're wandering around?

Jessica and Kyle could definitely use some additional development. Maybe bring back elements from TSS, such as Mel entrusting Kyle with guarding the Nanza Barrier? It would definitely explain why his men look up to him as a leader. Barring that, he has a lot of growing up to do. Also, Jessica's dilemma over showing her tomboyish side to her father definitely needs more exploration. Perhaps having Jess fight Plaster Mel by herself would be a first step toward her getting over her daddy complex? I could see Mia offering Jess some moral support on this issue, reassuring her that no one cares more for her than her dad and that he would still love her just the same if she revealed her true self. They could even give Alex the option of either telling her "He'd gladly accept you for who you are!" or "He'd probably disown you." The latter gets you a thorough dressing-down from Nall ("Alex, how could you?!")... and 25+ Renegade points.

The more I think about it, I'd probably remove Plaster Mel altogether, since regardless of how it plays out, it's one huge plothole. Jessica doesn't get why her dad would be out in the middle of a forest, even though he was stuck as a statue back in Meribia? And she doesn't question the fact that he's somehow able to turn her friends to stone?

[Alunissage]

I missed this thread a year and a half ago, but that's not much time around here, so I'll throw in a couple of comments.

Ghaleon and co. don’t continue to capture songstresses after discovering that Luna is the one they were searching for: Dumb plot-hole that could be easily written out of the script. Enough said.

When XSEED was localizing SSH, they asked about this. Apparently the gathering of additional singers was intentional as part of Ghaleon's plan to awaken Luna as Althena, by putting her into a mothering/leadership role as the captured girls look up to her. While that sounds like a bit of post hoc reasoning, Ghaleon's dialogue at the Blue Dragon Shrine backs this up a bit, though it only references her singing. The girl who escapes in TSS mentions the nurturing and leading aspects; don't remember if this is also the case in SSSC. In any event, it's something that didn't come through in translation or possibly in original scripting and should be made clearer.

In TSS, by the way, this wasn't a plot hole, because Luna's identity wasn't revealed until late in the game. The confrontation between Ghaleon and Quark focused on Dyne's loss, nothing to do with Althena. And since Luna didn't go to the mainland with Alex, she was never heard to sing; also, it was Xenobia who did all the singer-capturing (including Luna, who stays back at the spring when Ghaleon and Alex go see Quark). That aspect of the plot was a lot less telegraphed, since Ghaleon's motive was straight up revenge, not ideological. (Luna wasn't intended to be Althena's last incarnation, either.)

The Black Dragon Fortress/Pao Village:

I'd definitely like to see Fresca playable. That was one of my biggest disappointments with the remake. The split you suggest of Mia and Kyle being afflicted makes sense, but I'd also be happy with an all-female fighting party. I suppose they wouldn't have Nall for game system and inventory purposes, though, unless he attached to Mia (who seems to be his next favorite) or Jessica. If Tempest continues with arrows it probably does make the most sense to give Fresca a whip (which is what Tempest used in TSS).

I would love to see Kyle become something of a rowdy but caring big brother figure to Alex, maybe as a result of some friendly sparring matches during downtime.

I don't see this working with their characters, sorry. Kyle is a frat boy, Alex is the serious responsible one. It might've worked with TSS Kyle, who Mel trusted and put in a place of authority (and who didn't have any maudlin drunken scene, etc), but not with SSS Kyle. Rowdy cousin, maybe.

In TSS you didn't meet Kyle at all until after everything happened, and SSS isn't much better since Alex only sees Kyle drunk (or hears him and Jessica fighting, in Legend), and it's a little odd that he joins Alex so wholeheartedly, especially since he didn't get along with Mel in the remakes. And, as you note, he never meets Luna at all. So I think it'd be good for Alex and Luna to have at least a brief interaction with him when he's actually conscious, though I don't really know what that should be. On the way to Lann, I suppose, or maybe returning therefrom (would have to be when Jessica isn't in the party) if he's sobered up by then. Maybe an extra little crisis at Nanza on the way back.

Some NPCs mention Mia and Jessica being friends, by the way. I don't remember if either of them talk about it much directly other than not needing to be introduced to each other. It makes sense since their parents are old friends/adventuring buddies and they're each nobility and daughters of their respective cities' leaders, but a reason for why Jess hasn't been able to impart some of her excessive backbone to Mia would be good. Maybe Mia was forbidden by "Lemia" to visit her friend, so she was cut off when her mother seemingly went insane?

I also miss Mia's initiative in TSS. She is not nearly so helpless and tearful and stuff. TSS had less text and scenes to develop characters with, but I often feel like SSS brought the characters too close to stereotypes/archetypes in selectively fleshing out some personality aspects over others. Nash wasn't a traitor (or coward) in TSS, either; he only pretended to be to gain information.

Change Luna and Alex's backstory so that they grow up in different households, just to remove any trace of weirdness from their relationship. We don't see too many boys and their adopted sister falling in love irl. Make Luna Ramus' adopted sister? idk

I completely disagree with this. It breaks the backstory badly to have Luna entrusted to and raised by anyone but Alex's father, who was Dyne's childhood friend and adventured with him for a time. Alex and Luna are close from childhood, from even the moment they met when Dyne gave her to Alex's parents. And being raised together doesn't mean that any romantic ties have shades of incest, especially since it's clear that the entire family has been up front that Luna is adopted. (I just read Jane Austen's Mansfield Park last week, with a similar plot. Although the two people were first cousins, which was OK then.) I really think the ickiness is in the mind of the beholder.

Lunar's battle system was never particularly innovative to begin with

Pretty sure this is quite wrong. It was not at all the norm for range to be part of battles when the game came out -- nor, I think, for quite some years after. I was quite shocked when I saw FF7 still had people standing in a line and jumping forward to attack and jumping back, because TSS was the first RPG I played and I didn't know how unusual the battle system was.

As a side note, I think it's nice to still have a pure turn-based game now and then rather than active everything, or even active anything. I don't know if you had time-based stuff in mind, but it's what I thought of, and while I like that in some games, not everything needs to be updated.

That's about all I have time for now. I'll just add that I'd really like to see the Temple of Althena being less cathedralish. The contrast between TSS's temple and shrines and EB's sanctuaries was much more striking. Having the temple be a big church complete with pipe organs and stained glass window straight out of Notre Dame (for real, that's where the graphic on the floor comes from) really weakened the impact of the change.