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Conquering Your Enemy

Posted: Tue Jan 12, 2016 7:25 am
by Angelalex242
Hiro and Jean settle things with their counterparts with honorable duels.

Ronfar saves Mauri with the power of love, but he still does it on his own.

Only Lemina never does anything against Borgan or Neo Vane unilaterally. Why is that I wonder? She doesn't stop Neo Vane from crashing, Lucia does. She doesn't duel Borgan, it's your usual 5 on 1 fight. She got gypped, unless her story is supposed to be about how she can't do it alone. Still, she's the odd one out.

Even Lucia tries to 1 v 1 Zophar and complete the pattern. It just...doesn't end well for her.

Re: Conquering Your Enemy

Posted: Sun Jan 17, 2016 7:37 pm
by Shiva Indis
The only reason Borgan is a threat at all is because he's involved in the whole evil god restoration conspiracy, an aspect of the plot that Lemina is not tied into very strongly. Borgan on his own is pathetic and not worth Lemina's trouble. So I suppose her accomplishment where he is concerned is not kicking him once he's down. She definitely proves herself to be the bigger person.

Re: Conquering Your Enemy

Posted: Mon Jan 18, 2016 10:43 pm
by Kizyr
Well, it wasn't exactly like all the other fights were one-on-one. They each had a specific unique setup.

Leo vs. Hiro: Leo had to find an honorable way to cede control over to Hiro, and couldn't simply give it away. He didn't intend on winning, or killing Hiro, and it was deeply personal since he was wrestling with having been part of an evil organization without realizing it. So, from Leo's point-of-view, a one-on-one fight was the best way to honorably do it without involving too many others. From Hiro's point-of-view, a one-on-one fight was appropriate since Leo wasn't trying to actually kill anyone.

Jean vs. Lunn: This was entirely wrapped up in the rules of the tournament. To note, the others did help Jean in that they joined together to fight the other teams three-on-three (there was no similar "prelude" to the Hiro vs. Leo fight). It was only the last fight against Lunn that was one-on-one.

Ronfar vs. Mauri: This wasn't one-on-one either. Rather, the party split up: Ronfar went solo into Mauri's subconscious (with Lucia's help), while the rest of the party held her off from outside. It was still a team fight, just organized differently.

Lemina vs. Borgan: This was the only all-or-nothing fight. Borgan was going to kill the lot of them without adhering to any rules, and he's the toughest of the Four Heroes. No sense in pulling any punches or following some tournament-style rules.

I agree with Shiva Indis that Lemina's main personal growth from that battle came in not kicking Borgan when he was down. Similarly, Jean's growth came in being able to move on from Lunn after he was defeated; Ronfar's growth came in not running away from Mauri (and what he did) anymore; Hiro's growth came in... getting a really cool ship.

...maybe Hiro's the one who got short-changed. KF

Re: Conquering Your Enemy

Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 4:51 am
by Alunissage
I might be misremembering, but I thought some of Lemina's arc was learning that she didn't have to do it all by herself. I mean, when she was out recruiting for the Guild she wasn't looking for partners, she was looking for numbers and funding. She feels like a failure when Borgan snatches Miria and vanishes right in front of her, and tells the group to go ahead and laugh at how pathetic she is. Instead, of course, they say they'll help her. Her strength comes from accepting help. A one-on-one battle with Borgan would've been counter to that whole scene. Basically, Borgan won the one-on-one the first time we see him (and again in the Black Tower).

Ronfar's battle is initially with himself, to return to Pentagulia. I haven't (re)played much past this, but it seems like he had a pretty good idea that fixing Mauri would be beyond his skill alone, since he was up against a much stronger power actively working to take over Mauri, not just her own self. I rather feel like Mauri was much more overshadowed by Zophar, so to speak, than the other three. Leo, of course, had no idea he was working for Zophar and was basically just using his own personal power (at least, I can't think of anything that would be explained by "dragon magic" as opposed to his own skills); Borgan and Lunn were willing conspirators who used power from the dragons but provided their own motivations. Mauri was a good person who never sought evil or power for its own sake (that we see); she became one of Zophar's minions by deception and extortion, in a way (because she was dying). So more intervention was needed in her mind from Zophar, and Ronfar could see that he himself wouldn't be enough. The rest of the team worked on fighting the power she wielded while under control; Ronfar worked on saving her, not just defeating her. This is also what Leo was unable to do -- he could fight her, and maybe he would've defeated her, but he couldn't save her.

Jean, Lemina, and Hiro, of course, aren't trying to save their adversaries, just stop them. In the case of Hiro, he knew Leo had to save himself, and basically freed him to do that by honorably defeating him and releasing him from his White Knight responsibility.

Re: Conquering Your Enemy

Posted: Tue Jan 19, 2016 10:00 am
by The Boat Song
Alunissage wrote:Lemina's arc was learning that she didn't have to do it all by herself.

Pretty much. I think most games of that time had two typical "stock" stories for magicians: they either learned about their origins, or had to swallow their pride. Both Lemina and Nash had to do the latter.

Re: Conquering Your Enemy

Posted: Sun Jan 24, 2016 8:51 am
by Angelalex242
The only thing the White Dragon Aura was powering was the Destiny's White Dragon Canon. That was absolutely Nall's power right there. It's also why the Destiny doesn't use the canon once Hiro gets control of it.

Re: Conquering Your Enemy

Posted: Mon Jan 25, 2016 5:30 pm
by Kizyr
Angelalex242 wrote:The only thing the White Dragon Aura was powering was the Destiny's White Dragon Canon. That was absolutely Nall's power right there. It's also why the Destiny doesn't use the canon once Hiro gets control of it.

Oh hey, I never realized it, but this must be why no one ever runs off with the Destiny while Hiro and his party leave it parked while venturing into dungeons and caves.

...well, that and it would make the story really difficult without your airship-substitute. KF

Re: Conquering Your Enemy

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:34 am
by Angelalex242
I mean hey, if it still worked, you'd think Hiro would've taken a couple pot shots at Zophar while Lucia was trying to zap him.

Re: Conquering Your Enemy

Posted: Tue Jan 26, 2016 9:04 pm
by Alunissage
I hadn't thought of the Dragon Cannon = use of the dragon aura, but it makes perfect sense, even to the name. The cannon is also tied in to one of the more jarring scenes to my mind; maybe using it tended to incline Leo toward cruelty and other evil traits. Unless this section here is a bit mistranslated:
Jean [grimace] I knew that following you guys was a mistake…but not fighting Leo would be a bigger one. {Lemina steps backward}
Lemina [steamed] Hey, I have a great idea! Why don’t we surrender instead of getting ourselves slaughtered?!
Leo [thinking] Whatever you are discussing amongst yourselves is a moot issue. Don’t you understand?
[stern] My given task is to execute Lucia before she destroys us all… …and know that I have both the will and the resources to carry out that task.
[angry] Acquire targets! Prepare to fire! {cannons start warming up and sparking}
Lemina [shocked] I surrender! Don’t shoot! I'm too young and beautiful to die!!
Leo [stern] Cease your pathetic begging, and go to your graves with a shred of dignity.
[angry] Dragon Cannon, fi-- {Lightning comes from above and flashes purple, stopping the cannons’ charge. Leo turns.}

Does it seem at all in character that he would fire on ALL of them, including Lemina, who he hasn't met and who is surrendering? The only other explanation I have is that he can't hear her. I'm starting to think that that whole bit was supposed to be that the cannon was only aimed at Lucia, not the others. Especially given the end of the scene:
? Lord Leo has been wounded! We must retreat at once and tend to his injuries! Keep the Dragon Cannon aimed at Lucia, and ready to fire! Don’t take your eyes off her! {Destiny retreats offscreen.}
Ruby [cute] I don’t know what THAT was all about, but we’re saved!
[normal] I know he’s a big jerk and all, but I hope Leo’s okay. Whatever hit him really must have hurt!
Ronfar [grin] Leo will be fine, pretty-kitty. White Knights tend to bounce back pretty quickly.
[normal] He’s taken worse than that and survived…so let’s get outta here while we have the chance. {Screen darkens, comes up on usual map.}

The soldier says to keep the cannon trained on Lucia, not the whole party. And Ruby is bizarrely forgiving, and concerned because whatever hit him must've really hurt, when he was about to wipe them out entirely -- and she's seen the Dragon Cannon in action, destroying the Guardians, who were strong enough that she was certain they were all going to die.

Re: Conquering Your Enemy

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 8:55 am
by Angelalex242
Well, the other time Leo seems...out of during Azado before the fire starts. It's like he has a couple moments where he wavers towards Knight Templar. Thankfully, he usually snaps out of it before he can go too far.

Re: Conquering Your Enemy

Posted: Wed Jan 27, 2016 9:40 am
by Alunissage
Azado was just badly done in general, though. That's not the only characterization problem. It was clearly left out of a round of editing.