On Althenas actions.

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titop222
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On Althenas actions.

Postby titop222 » Thu Oct 31, 2019 8:37 am

Greetings!

The purpose of this post is to start a discussion over Althenas actions both pre and post the events of the first Lunar story.


Now, as a brief background, my main sources for the story are Lunar Legend (GBA), Lunar Silver Star Story (app for Ipad) and Lunar 2: Eternal Blue Complete, so I may be missing/misunderstanding some information, in which case I'll be glad to be corrected.


To my understanding, the events go something like this: Humanity was living peacefully in the Blue Star, until Zophar was drawn to it. In the ensuing chaos/battles, the Blue star became inhospitable, and as such Althena decided to transport humanity to the nearby planet, Lunar. But, she left Lucia to "watch over" the Blue Star, so that when it was hospitable again, humanity could go back once more. Meanwhile on Lunar, Althena used her powers to make it more hospitable, however, somehow her powers were not enough to cover the whole planet and as such The Frontier is a thing ( Here is my first doubt. 1) I am doubtful on wether her powers were not enough, or she chose to punish the Vile Tribe by specifically creating and allocating them into The Frontier).


After this, it is to my understanding that she set up the whole DragonMaster system to help protect the world, with the Star Dragon as the gatekeeper to the Blue Star. Now, my second point of discussion, 2) Althena (at some point) decided she wanted to experience a normal mortal life and thus began her re-incarnation cycle into human girls (e.g Luna)? And to me it seems that the Dragon Master is always destined to meet the reincarnation at some point? Furthermore, since Althena needed to keep an eye out for Zophar re-appearing, I imagine that each and every re-incarnation at some point regained all of Althenas memories (that must have been shocking) albeit, in a much less violent way than Luna did.

Eventually we get to the Dyne (and the Four heroes) story. To my understanding, it is during this cycle that Althena and Dyne fully realize the power of humanity, and that Althena is not needed as an immortal/Goddess to guide humanity forever. Hence, Luna would be her final re-incarnation... But I wonder, 3) if Althena had already been doing re-incarnations for multiple generations, what makes Luna different enough that once Luna dies, so does Althena? Clearly Luna/Althena still is very powerful even without the power she uses to keep the planet prospering, so what happens to that? Does Luna loose all of her abilities after the event of the Silver Star?


Finally, one more thing I want to point out. Althena/Luna clearly knew about Zophar/Lucia. And Lucia was definitely blindsided by Althena deciding to die... Would you consider it a selfish move by Althena? There was a clear understanding between Lucia and Althena as to what their roles were. While Lucia got stuck lonely in stasis, waiting for the faithful day, Althena got to experience multiple unique lifetimes, love and humanities power/kindness. Then when Lucia gets back, she finds out Althena bailed on their agreement... I'd be pretty frustrated as Lucia to be honest. Then again, its not like I don't understand Althenas decision. Heck, the final message she leaves Hiro/Lucia (the one implying Hiro is Lucia future partner in the ending of Lunar 2: Eternal Blue Complete) implies that to some extent Luna/Althena knew what would happen, and her dying might have been the only way... but it does feel just a tiny bit selfish... Lucia had to wait the extra 1,000 years, surely Althena could have done the same before she decided to bite it for good.


What are your thoughts? Again, any corrections you might want to make, please feel free. I'd love to learn more about the lore of Lunar!

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Alunissage
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Re: On Althenas actions.

Postby Alunissage » Sun Nov 03, 2019 8:37 am

Some of your last note is an artifact of translation. In the Japanese EBC, Luna's note doesn't mention Hiro by name; she just foresees that Lucia will have found someone (much as her recording in the Goddess Tower does, when she says Lucia must have had good friends to have gotten there). Also, in Japanese Lunar 2 takes place 500-600 years after Lunar 1, not that it makes that much of a difference.

I've personally never been convinced that Althena is actually nonexistent by then, but there isn't anything specifically supporting that in the games, it's just my feeling. I think Althena and Zophar are probably the same kind of being, and if Zophar couldn't be destroyed but only imprisoned, I don't think it'd be so easy for Althena to just choose to no longer live either. But as I said, that's my personal take on it, not anything official.

Regarding what made Luna special, this varies between versions. In the original SegaCD versions of Lunar 1 and Lunar 2, it's clear that Luna was just a typical incarnation of Althena's, and what made her decide to stay human is that she found true love, as she says in her recording in the Goddess Tower. In fact, people who played Eternal Blue when it came out on SegaCD had no idea that Althena no longer existed, because there was nothing to suggest that she would stop existing after her life as Luna. In the remakes of Lunar 1 the decision to become mortal permanently is one Althena makes before ever meeting Alex, and as Laike describes the scene, it took the power of the Dragonmaster as well as Althena to accomplish that. I forget if that's mentioned in Lunar Legend, which had very strict character limits on the English text and had to keep a lot of things brief.

Another thing mentioned in the SegaCD Eternal Blue that got dropped from the remake is that the Blue Spire is revealed to have the specific purpose of accumulating and storing magic/energy to enable the revival of the Blue Star. With that in mind, I have no trouble believing that Althena would have to be conservative with her magic when terraforming the Blue Star. She also had just used a bunch of magic to destroy the Blue Star and confine Zophar. The Dragonmaster and dragons helped her with the terraforming; she might not have been strong enough to do it alone. There also just may not have been enough people around to justify transforming the entire planet(oid).

As a side note to that, one difference about the Frontier in the original SegaCD Lunar 1 is that it's shown as a barren area with acid pits, but not specifically a cratered moonscape, and there are several human towns in it (the Vile Tribe are strictly monsters in that game, not humanoid). The DS prequel Dragon Song (or Genesis, in Japan and Europe) also showed the Frontier as poisonous rather than just dark, and implied that the beginnings of the Vile Tribe deliberately put themselves there to get away from Althena's oversight while they experimented with magic. While there are many things in that game that are...questionable as far as fitting into Lunar lore as established by Lunar 1 and 2, there's nothing particularly contradictory about that. I would posit, though again this is my speculation, that said magical experiments might have even turned the Frontier into the mess it is, from a dry but habitable desert. But that doesn't really work with the dark side of the moon portrayal in the remakes of Lunar 1.

What else... oh, I don't know if it's clearly stated that every Dragonmaster meets the Goddess or if it's just that he's the only one who does (and again, there could be translation artifacts there). There's some material -- the Japanese-only Magic School, possibly -- that says that she reincarnates every 500 years, but I don't think a time is specified in Lunar 1 itself. Certainly in EB(C) no one seems to be expressing surprise at how long it's taken her (or who they believe to be her, of course) to show up again, but I kind of wonder if anyone thought it was weird that there hadn't been any Dragonmasters in all that time (because Nall had the sword and wasn't giving it out). In Lunar 1 people seem to feel that 15 years without a dragonmaster is a ridiculously long time. On the other hand, some folks also thought that guy on Lann Island was a dragonmaster, so maybe folks are just clueless. Someone in the SegaCD Lunar 1 (and maybe the remake(s), I forget) says that Althena has incarnated many times "and even has been a human!", implying that other incarnations were nonhuman. I don't know what the implications of that would be regarding her memory. Anyway, what I'm saying here is that I don't think we know anything about whether her incarnations sync up with the dragonmasters at all.

Oh, one more thing about Lucia and Althena. This is another place where the original games and the remakes differ a bit. In the SegaCD Eternal Blue, it's clear that Zophar sends the dream (somehow...) that wakes Lucia up early. She wasn't supposed to awaken until after the Blue Star had recovered a bit more (enough so that walking outside without clothes wouldn't matter much, I guess). What is less clear is whether she actually expected to meet Althena at that time, or at all. She only goes to Lunar because she believes it is in danger and needs to meet with Althena to...what? We never actually find out what Lucia intended to do once they met up. Yet Luna obviously expects her to go to Lunar, since she left the recorded message for her. I don't remember if in the SegaCD she mentioned Zophar at all. The scenario writer mentioned in a Q and A that it never occurred to Luna that things would progress to the nearly irrevocable state they were in when Lucia arrives. So it sounds like Lucia and Althena expected to meet up when the Blue Star was ready to be reinhabited, but that Althena didn't anticpate Zophar's revival so she didn't think it would be a big deal to leave Lucia to deal with it by herself. (Another reason I don't think she actually stopped existing and was more inclined to see if Lucia could handle it by herself, haha.)

The threatening part of Lucia's awakening (a dream of clawed hands crushing Lunar until it explodes in blood) is not in the remake, and I don't remember if it's as obvious that Zophar had anything to do with it. But Althena's recording does clearly say that she expects Lucia to have to defeat Zophar, while also expressing confidence that Lucia can do it with the help of her friends--which Lucia immediately ignores, of course, possibly because her experience with humanity is so recent rather than being developed over millennia like Althena's is.

The Japanese novelization of Eternal Blue actually has Lucia saying that she has never met Althena. But I don't think that's expressed in any way in the games. The games do suggest that Lucia has had little or no experience with humans at all, which makes me think possibly she was brought into being very close to the death of the Blue Star...though of course we have no idea how that happens anyway.

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titop222
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Re: On Althenas actions.

Postby titop222 » Tue Nov 05, 2019 10:36 am

Alunissage wrote:Some of your last note is an artifact of translation. In the Japanese EBC, Luna's note doesn't mention Hiro by name; she just foresees that Lucia will have found someone a



Ah, that makes more sense. I was a bit surprised at Luna/Althenas ability to see that far into the future, but then again, I guess she reasoned that at some point Lucia had to come.

Alunissage wrote: I've personally never been convinced that Althena is actually nonexistent by then, but there isn't anything specifically supporting that in the games, it's just my feeling. … the Japanese-only Magic School, possibly -- that says that she reincarnates every 500 years, but I don't think a time is specified in Lunar 1 itself. Certainly in EB(C) no one seems to be expressing surprise at how long it's taken her (or who they believe to be her, of course) to show up again,




Very interesting. Since my first intro to the Lunar series was Lunar Legend, I go off the cutscene where Dyne and Althena are in the tower, she clearly has the adult body, then he sacrifices his power and a baby comes out (IIRC) (This is shortly after he argues with Ghaleon). As such, I always assumed the re-incarnation process was essentially instant and that the DragonMaster (or someone with power) had to be there. Then again, this particular cycle could have been an exception given Althena had decided to entrust humanity and make Luna her last re-incarnation.


As for the people not finding it weird. To my understanding, the Goddess in Lunar 1 was said to be in the Tower all the time, hence no one really questioned why in the 2-ish decades she wasn't actually present. Perhaps the followers of Althena (especially with how it got corrupted in Lunar 2) kept up the Lie further for 500 years (or 1k, depending on translation) until the fake one appeared.


Alunissage wrote: In the remakes of Lunar 1 the decision to become mortal permanently is one Althena makes before ever meeting Alex, and as Laike describes the scene, it took the power of the Dragonmaster as well as Althena to accomplish that. I forget if that's mentioned in Lunar Legend


Interesting how in the older versions the decision was made as Luna, not in the previous cycle. But from what I recall, Layke does explain how it took all his power to make her mortal per se, but to my understanding, Althena has had previous mortal forms, perhaps those were just incapable of "dying" or had more power than Luna?



Also, I had read about the different Frontier background. Vile Tribe and Co banishing themselves on purpose to do the experiments does make sense to a point, but, if I may ask, what was the 3-sisters of the Vile Tribes goal in the original games then? If they exiled themselves on purpose (as in, the vile tribe) then why would they have a grudge vs Althena for not blessing their lands/them like the other mortals? Or is this another translation issue? Or Ghaleon propaganda vs Althena?


Alunissage wrote: Anyway, what I'm saying here is that I don't think we know anything about whether her incarnations sync up with the dragonmasters at all.


If Althena does take a long time to re-incarnate usually, and possibly into non-human forms, then it does make sense the she doesnt neccesarily sync up with DragonMaster iterations. IIRc in Lunar 2s Vane Lbrary there is a list of some DragonMasters of the past with a short description, maybe ill give it a re-read and see if it mentions something about the goddess.


Alunissage wrote: The Japanese novelization of Eternal Blue actually has Lucia saying that she has never met Althena. But I don't think that's expressed in any way in the games. The games do suggest that Lucia has had little or no experience with humans at all, which makes me think possibly she was brought into being very close to the death of the Blue Star...though of course we have no idea how that happens anyway.



Wait, what? If she never met Althena, then this implies some third party must have come up with the plan to have Lucia in stasis until the Blue Star was ready, right? Althena worked to set everything up from the transfer to the building of the Spire and the habitability of Lunar, so it strikes me as odd that she wouldn't have been the one to plan the Lucia part of the plan. As for Lucia having no experience with humans. That is actually something that I hadn't considered. She does look like and early 20-ish in age, so its kinda inconceivable that she wouldn't have had interactions in the Blue star pre-Zophar with other humans. My immediate thought is, do we know how long the Zophar thing lasted? Maybe if it went for a long time before Althena managed to salvage humanity we could justify Lucia growing up in such a bad war-torn environment that she barely had real human interactions? (But then, who took care of her as she grew up???) The other possibility is that Lucia was simply "created" for the plan, as in she was just spawned as a 20-ish year old with limited to no actual memories other than her mission. Can Althena even do that though?


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