What's Canon for you?

[DaWrestla]

Hey everyone! Longtime Lunar fan, new poster.

Anyway, I'd like to know which games you guys consider Lunar Canon, what with all the remakes and all, and why. For me they are:

Lunar: Dragon Song (though it's a prequal, it's more than a gaiden)
Lunar Magic School (a gaiden that I have no desire to ever play)
Lunar: SSSC
Lunar: EBC

That's right, I consider the "Complete" versions to be Canon, not the Sega CD versions. Three reasons: 1) I never played the originals (but I was introduced to the series from my friend...I would always go to his house and watch him play TSS when I was around 10) and 2) I really liked the explanation given in the "Lunar SSSC Making OF" CD. The developer said that they way to look at it is that each game system is a different person that has different abilities and means of expressing the story. To that effect, it basically sounded like to me that he viewed the Complete versions as better...and canon. And 3) There is a "Complete" after the two PSX versions.

Granted, I do think some plot points in TSS and EB were cool and could have been better served in the Complete versions (Insane black dragon, Hiro to stone, etc). But, If the developers feel the Complete are the true versions of the story, then so be it.

I guess we'll really find out when (and if) Lunar Four Heroes Story is developed (see Nintendo Power Interview). If they include Dyne losing his powers because of the black dragon (TSS) as opposed to simply weaning humanity off the powers of Althena and the Dragonmaster (SSSC) then I'll have a lot of thinking to do. I hope they developers makes the right choice on this one!

I look forward to everyone's answers!

[DevNall]

First off, I think "Complete" was added by Working Designs in the US translation -- and it's GameArts who decides what is canon.

That having been said, if they preferred the original story, I don't think they would have changed those parts... and that in later remakes (such as Lunar Legend), they might have changed more back.

[Kizyr]

Wow... that's really weak reasoning. I mean razor-thin kind of weak.

To begin, having "Complete" after the title is something that was originally added to the Lunar: Silver Star Story that had MPEG video. So, if "Complete" implies canon, that means your process for validation in the Lunar series has something to do with what format the animated cutscenes are in. "Complete" was added in the English naming to differentiate them from the originals, and imply that they were remakes.

Next... having never played the originals... that speaks for itself as weak. By extension, that means that anything I don't play is unofficial, or anything I don't see doesn't exist.

Lastly... "better" doesn't mean canon. Each format gave the creators of Lunar something different to do in each game. Silver Star has, in total, four different variations. TSS was tailored to work with the Sega CD, SSS was tailored to work with the Saturn and PSX, Legend was made to work as a handheld game, and the novels were made so that the events flowed better in text (the most significant changes were made in the novelization). Shigema himself mentioned that specifically in regards to SSS and the novels--so by your logic, the novels would also be canon.

What's "official" or canon doesn't really matter so much. But the easiest to work with is the originals. When the title of the GBA game was released, it got me thinking about the different incarnations. As with any legend, there are multiple retellings and versions of it; some change facts, add in characters, remove events, etc. The story of Alex and his party could have gone through the same sort of deal, with each incarnation being a different retelling of the story.

For me, TSS stands as the most official, relatively, while the other versions are retellings of the same story. Besides which, the confirmation of multiple rebirths of Althena meshes with the rest of the Lunar universe and all other games. Eternal Blue for the PSX was extremely similar to the original for the Sega CD, with only a few changes; so, it's safe to say that EBC is based more off of the events of TSS than the events of SSS--only a couple of changes needed to be made to make it fit with the remakes. KF

[drumlord]

I think we've begun to overuse the word canon on these forums. In this particular use of it, we're really talking about authenticity (obviously not any of the religious meanings). There's no question that all of the games are authentic and accepted as Lunar games and therefore canon. The real issue at hand in this thread is that we have conflicts within the canon. So I would say a better question would be ask "What version of events do you think is better?"

[Alunissage]

Right. In discussions most people here simply refer to the differences by their version rather than saying one is more official or "right" than the others. However, it's perfectly valid to say that this version of Lunar 1 and that version of Lunar 2 are what you think of as being 'the' story...as long as you recognize that other people can disagree. DS contradicts the portrayal of Althena in SSSC and EBC (in her character design, I mean); does that mean that those two are no longer canon because the most recent installment shows her with pink hair? Probably not.

Incidentally, the drama CDs may well be a fifth version, but no one who can understand them has yet given an opinion on this. I can make out some points of similarity with the novels in the first disc or two, but the third and fourth sounded like they went with SSS's story at least in part. But I'd have to reread the novel summaries and listen again to be able to make even a tentative statement.

DS, by the way, seems to be making a slight attempt to meld the two primary versions of Lunar 1 in (slight DS spoiler?)having multiple rebirths but a growing belief on Althena's part that the inhabitants of Lunar would be better off without her, even though it apparently took a thousand years for her to actually decide this. The reasons for Dyne's 'death' in TSS and SSSC will be a lot harder to blend, though.

[Katze]

The way I see it, anything created by GameArts is canon. It doesn't matter what is better or worse. If it's an official Lunar game, it's canon.

What I don't consider canon are the mangas. I don't know who wrote the novels, so I can't say whether I think they're canon or not.

[phyco126]

Forgive my lack of knowledge in this matter, but uh, what's canon mean in this respect?

[GhaleonOne]

Best definition I've found is: " A group of literary works that are generally accepted as representing a field." To use the most popular example, the Bible is the "canon" of Christian scripture. It is an "official" or widely accepted collection of Hebrew scriptures.

In terms of Lunar, canon would be the "correct" or "true" versions of Lunar, of which there really isn't any set canon. The entire series is canon if it was represented in any official capacity. Even the mangas, novels, drama CDs, etc. would be considering canon as far as I'm concerned. The stories don't have to match. After all, the Gospels don't match in places, but that doesn't make one less canon than another (well, to most Christians it wouldn't ). Lunar could be interpreted the same way. There's three game verions of Lunar 1 (TSS, SSS, and Legend), along with the set of novels, background manga and drama CDs that all may be different in some regards. TSS has Dyne "dying" during the battle with the Black Dragon, with Ghaleon being the only one that supposedly came out of the cave alive. (though, as it's found, wasn't true, and Laike was born). SSS and Legend have a different background on this, and have Dyne sacrificing himself to bring a human Althena into the world in the form of Luna. The manga's seem to mainly support this, but then, probably conflict a bit as well. I can't even say regarding the drama CDs, and until Kiz posts the full novel summaries, I don't recall exactly what they support, but I do know there's some crazy differences between it and all other versions of Lunar 1.

However, all that said, they are all still "canon" in the Lunar universe, as the developers, and specifically, the main scenario designer for the Lunar universe, Kei Shigema, have backed them up and/or created them.

[DragonmasterDan]

I think all of the released versions of the game are canon (BTW I think my use of the word canon on that magical school thread a few days ago triggered the canon phenomenon we see before us ). What I don't think is officially canon is the manga or novels (for example was or wasn't Noah alive when Alex embarked on his adventure, this could also be argued regarding Legend sa well).

When you get into the "not canon" section of gaming its usually with regard to crazy gaidens, or odd sequels and then merchandise or products made from them (example animes, mangas, books) with stories not necessarily written by the creators. Some examples of non-canon games are Metal Gear : Snakes Revenge for NES (which has little to nothing to do with the regular series and is not the same game as Metal Gear 2 for MSX), Panzer Dragoon Mini, and a number of other games coming from series where the creators of the series (or at least those who have a significant background with them) were not signficiantly involved.

[drumlord]

The way I see it, anything created by GameArts is canon.

That would only be the two Sega CD games then. GameArts pretty much washed its hands of Lunar and hasn't developed a single Lunar game since then.

[Kizyr]

I think all of the released versions of the game are canon (BTW I think my use of the word canon on that magical school thread a few days ago triggered the canon phenomenon we see before us ). What I don't think is officially canon is the manga or novels (for example was or wasn't Noah alive when Alex embarked on his adventure, this could also be argued regarding Legend sa well).

What I don't consider canon are the mangas. I don't know who wrote the novels, so I can't say whether I think they're canon or not.

I'm wondering, what's your reasoning on that? The Vane manga fits very well with the original TSS and SSS games, both. So I consider it very much canon. The Lunar EB manga, however, tells a much different story of the original events. Lumping all the manga into the same group and saying it's unofficial or not canon is too much of a generalization.

By the way, the SSS novels were written by Kei Shigema, the scenario writer for TSS, SSS, EB, and DS. The EB novels are by a different author. KF

[DaWrestla]

Wow, nice to know I started something

Anyway, what I mean by canon is what stories in the Lunar world do each of you consider the true and definitive stories. The stories...legends, if you will...that most accurately reflect what "really" happened on Lunar. As far as I see it, the tellings that accurately reflect this are those that I posted above. I know that a lot of people feel differently. However, I would love to know what the developers feel are the official...canon...tellings.

Now, not to start a different debate that I'm sure has been already covered here, but in SSSC is it not stated that Althena is reborn multiple times? I could have sworn for sure that it was, and if not, that it was for sure in EBC. Does SSSC not talk about it at all, then? I know one of you can help me with this.[/quote]

[drumlord]

mainly for G1: you know, you may want to start a FAQ taking some of the conclusions we've drawn from these discussions. Things like "In what games does it state Althena was born multiple times?" "How many past dragonmasters are mentioned in the libraries?" Stuff like that. Ignore me if you already have something like that

[GhaleonOne]

In terms of Dragonmasters, I need to go back and read through the Vane Libraries in each game to add to the timeline.

There is a semi-FAQ of information in the timeline. It contains dates from all the games, and if there is differing material (such as the backstory of TSS vs. SSS) then it's noted. Even things that only stated in the original and not the remake (or vise versa) are listed. Especially regarding history.

[Angelalex242]

DS Spoiler:

[spoiler]Are you going to include Ignatius and Jian in the line of Dragonmasters? Ignatius may be evil, and Jian didn't fully awaken quite yet, but...they do have the title...[/spoiler]

[GhaleonOne]

[spoiler]I'm debating leaving them off for a few more months, even though there are other spoilers on the timeline. I'll definately be putting a bigger spoiler warning on it.[/spoiler]

[Katze]

The way I see it, anything created by GameArts is canon.

That would only be the two Sega CD games then. GameArts pretty much washed its hands of Lunar and hasn't developed a single Lunar game since then.

Fine then. Any Lunar game that was either developed by GameArts or that GameArts supervised the development of.

I'm wondering, what's your reasoning on that? The Vane manga fits very well with the original TSS and SSS games, both. So I consider it very much canon. The Lunar EB manga, however, tells a much different story of the original events. Lumping all the manga into the same group and saying it's unofficial or not canon is too much of a generalization.

By the way, the SSS novels were written by Kei Shigema, the scenario writer for TSS, SSS, EB, and DS. The EB novels are by a different author. KF

Alright, since the SSS novels were written by the scenario writer for the Lunar games, I would consider that canon.

But since the mangas (as far as I know of, correct me if I'm wrong) weren't written by a member who had a major part in the development of the games, I would not consider them canon, no matter how well they fit in with the original storylines. Because they weren't created by the official makers of the games.

For example, if a fanart or fanfiction for a Lunar game fits almost perfectly with the story and the characters are all portrayed wonderfully, does that make it canon? In my opinion, no.

[Kizyr]

But since the mangas (as far as I know of, correct me if I'm wrong) weren't written by a member who had a major part in the development of the games, I would not consider them canon, no matter how well they fit in with the original storylines. Because they weren't created by the official makers of the games.

We don't have full details posted yet on all the manga (manga-related stuff is the update I'm actually working on at the moment, so that should come within this month in fact). But, the Vane and Lunar: Childhood's End manga were both written by Akari Funato, who did much of the artwork for the remakes and Lunar: WS / MS. Also, the end of the Vane manga includes commentary by Kei Shigema that pretty much validates it as part of the series.

So... by that logic, at the very least, the Vane manga is definitely canon (usually considered so, given Shigema's comments on it). Lunar: Childhood's End most likely is, but I can see where it'd be debated. KF

[DevNall]

What about...
[spoiler]the creation of the Vile Tribe? DS more or less states that they were turned into that by Ignatius.

Titus: That is correct. Originally the Frontier existed to confine those evildoers for whom there was no other hope... Until, that is, Ignatius turned his attention to it.
Gabryel: ...What did he do?
Titus: Through a terrible abuse of Black Magic, he took the fiends of the Frontier and molded them into a Vile Tribe. Now, he stands at their head, a terrible and mighty army of evil. The entire world is standing on the brink of being ruled by Ignatius and his Vile Tribe.
[/spoiler]

Regarding the topic of being cannon, Lunar is Lunar; but I played SSSC before any other versions, so that's what comes to mind when I think of Lunar.

That being said, that version of the storyline seems more prevalent (I have not played them, but from what I've been seen and been told, the Saturn and PC versions are nearly identical). But even if we just assume that was for budgetary reasons, with Lunar Legend, they probably had to redo most of the game anyway, so if they wanted to, they certainly could've redone the original storyline. In fact, if you remove the CD audio, you can apparently fit the US release of TSS on a commercially available GBA cart with room to spare.

But I'm only talking about games, as these different platforms constitute roughly equivalent mediums. Any story generally requires more work to be converted from one medium to another (if you want it to be good); you see this all the time with books and movies.

But I don't have any particular stake in the matter, if they decide to go off with one version of the story over another when planning Four Heroes Story, that's (probably) all fine as long as the resultant game is good.

[GhaleonOne]

Well, I'm almost certain they'll go off of SSSC's storyline for Four Heroes. TSS was made so long ago, and way more people have experienced SSSC than TSS. Legend is just graphically remade with some very minor changes to story.