Jenner's Guide to "Getting" Girls.

[Blue_Sycro]

Phyco, I didn't read through the site thoroughly myself, but I think the general idea is that the self-proclaimed "nice guys" who feel they are getting shoved aside by women ARE generally insecure, and a lot of times that makes them super clingy and needy. They'll have a tendency to put the girl on a pedestal, and it can come across as sort of creepy, if you will. Then when the girl gets weirded out and leaves, they decry womankind without noticing that they have some faults of their own that may be part of the problem (keep in mind, I'm not saying you or anyone else here is like this, it's just a general observation).

Now, more confident men aren't so clingy and needy, and that's more attractive. Men who are known to be cheaters, or jerks, can sometimes be very charismatic, and I think that's why a lot of women fall for jackasses sometimes. Or some women are just gluttons for punishment, or have weird daddy issues, or whatever. It's not that cuckolding jerks are nice guys, it's that women want a man who can stand on his own two feet, and who they don't feel like might become too obsessed with them. There's a difference between an affectionate, mutual relationship and dependency.

For example, I know a guy who, whenever it seems there's a girl who may be interested in him, makes that girl his life. An example exchange between them might go like this:

Girl: Hey, I'm just going to visit a friend for a while, I'll be back tonight.
Him: Okay. I'll just wait here for you and make you a card while you're gone and have flowers delivered to your friend's house and call you every hour and tell you how much I miss you.

I'm exaggerating for comedy, but you get the gist (again, not accusing anyone here of doing this specifically).

Werefrog, the only Woody Allen movie I've seen is Hannah and her Sisters, and as I recall he does get the girl at the end. So there is hope!

[Alunissage]

The vicious circle of a nice guy's life. Nice guy is too insecure about himself and as a result is terrified of harsh rejection. Girls hate nice guys and if that website is to believed, sees nice guys as disturbed ass's, and as a result harshly rejects the nice guy. Now the nice guy is even more insecure about himself, and as a result is even more terrified of harsh rejection. It's an evil cycle.

One important thing to note about that site's terminology is that "nice guy" in that context refers specifically to men who self-identify as "nice guys [who don't get any female attention because women only want jerks, whine stereotype whine]" -- that is, who think they are owed a reward for being what they perceive as nice (which often isn't very nice at all when looked at objectively) and jump into all sorts of bitter generalizations about the perfidy and shallowness of all women ever who don't happen to respond to their particular brand of "niceness". In other words, they're not actually nice in the real sense of the word as a personality trait without ulterior motive, they're "nice" as a means to get someone and labelling themselves as such lets them avoid examining their own actions objectively.

Although I hadn't thought of it in exactly these terms until writing this post, my first relationship was with a "nice guy" back in high school. It's been twenty years since we met and the memories I haven't managed to suppress still make me a bit ill. In some ways it would've been better if he'd been an overt jerk instead of a "nice guy" who had so deceived himself about his own intentions that he probably had no idea what a manipulative, clingy, bastard he was being. Hell, it took me months after we split to start figuring it out, and years to fully realize it, and he's probably fortunate that it took that long so I couldn't easily have him arrested when I finally got it. And no one, no one would've believed that he could be considered abusive, because he was such a Nice Guy. I couldn't even convince my parents that I had sufficient reason to not ever want to talk to him again without going into the thankfully few more blatant examples I couldn't bear to talk about. I don't think I ever have explained, so they probably

(Several posts since I started typing that up so this may be redundant. Oh well.)

It's "bona fide", by the way.

[phyco126]

These explanations are very interesting and certainly give a lot of insight on the matter. So in other words, a nice guy manages to convice themselves that because they are so "nice" they deserve the girl. When the girl doesn't express interest in the guy, then the guy resorts to saying women are stupid or whatever for going for the "jerks." They even resort to meaner tactics, like emotional abuse, harrasment, stalking, etc. Am I right?

Now I've read several of the articles on that site, and I honestly can't say I identify with them, but I'm in no way going to say I haven't done things that I look back on and cringe. The difference though, is that I've had talked to friends about all my actions, and they have all told me how to proceed, etc. So pretty much what that site says and what everyone here is alluding too, is to be secure in yourself. Love yourself. If you are going to change, change for yourself and not for the others. Enjoy life. And stop depending on friends to help you out with your love life (at least as closely as mine have) and grow a spine and throw yourself out there. Build up that confidence and shine.

Do I have the gist here?

[Monde Luna]

I think you have the gist of it. To further elaborate on what Blue_Sycro was saying sometimes nice guys can be creepy. I have a story here, mind you I am an average girl, I'm not skinny or super attractive. However I went to H.S. with this guy (he was not really my type anyway we didn't have much in common) we had known each other for over a year and we were in band together. Well over the summer we took a trip to Scandinavia and did a tour. As the trip progresses I notice the guy is following me around EVERYWHERE. Once I was shopping he offered to buy me something I liked, I said no. He tried to convince me to try on some clothes.... I didn't obviously. In my mind we were just acquaintances, we knew each other and we got along but we didn't know each other well enough to be friends. Apparently he thought differently, that is what I get for being nice to everyone... Do guys always take nice girls the wrong way? Anyway we would play pool and he would let me win. (every game and I'm not even that good) I was a vegetarian at the time and he gave up meat. I’m pretty sure he even started to practice more to try to impress me. Then after he figured out I wasn't into him he started moping to the whole front half of the bus about me. "I gave up meat for her." "I thought we were such good friends." etc etc etc. It really creeped me out, however I still like nice guys. I did marry one after all. Nice guys are cool as long as they are 1) not creepy 2) have similar interests as you (my husband is not a musician but we still have a few other things in common) 3) a little bit of confidence is good thing 4) not creepy 5) be yourself and do what you enjoy.

[Nobiyuki77]

Huh. Well that explains a lot. While I'm not NEARLY extreme as people who "give up meat" or "follow other people around", looking at the general topics discussed (jumping into all sorts of bitter generalizations about the perfidy and shallowness of all women ever who don't happen to respond to their particular brand of "niceness", a nice guy manages to convice themselves that because they are so "nice" they deserve the girl etc.) I'm probably creepy as hell and don't deserve -Dragon Diamond-.

Never knew I was a bona fide bastard until today. -Dragon Diamond-.

[Monde Luna]

I wouldn't say your a bastard Nobi, but then again I never would have guessed you where a creepy type. In general I don't think guys realize when they creep us out, you can always run things by the L-net girls before if you think you might be creeping a girl out. I assume most of us will be more than willing to give you our thoughts.

[Nobiyuki77]

Well, I mean, did I or did I not go on a long rant about my frustrations with women?

If that doesn't qualify as "jumping into all sorts of bitter generalizations about the perfidy and shallowness of all women ever who don't happen to respond to their particular brand of "niceness" than I don't know what does.

[Monde Luna]

This is true but men and women always bash eachother when they are frustrated that just seems to be the way it works. (That doesn't make it right though)

[LuciaOne]

Second, don't go for fake blonds, or even real ones! They're trouble.

Stfu.
I will take you on, and your lame brunettes will be felled by my sword!

[Alunissage]

Well, I mean, did I or did I not go on a long rant about my frustrations with women?

If that doesn't qualify as "jumping into all sorts of bitter generalizations about the perfidy and shallowness of all women ever who don't happen to respond to their particular brand of "niceness" than I don't know what does.

Yes, you did. But that's not the same thing at all as being a creep, although people who are creeps can and often do indulge in the same kind of one-sided rant. What makes someone creepy is what they do before then... get smotheringly interested in someone and insensitive to reality, as Monde Luna's example illustrated, or putting on the veneer of niceness (their version of niceness, e.g. giving help that isn't wanted or asked) in order to score, as many of the examples on the heartless--Borgan- site illustrate.

Look. You KNOW you're not being rational. You KNOW you're jumping to extreme conclusions to force other people to talk you out of them -- this then allows you to blame them for your bad mood if they don't do so. It's not all about you, okay? When people give examples of bad behavior and say that those people share a characteristic or two with you, that is not equating you and them. Some discussion of various types of people is going to occur that do not include you -- and if they don't, if you're not prone to turn into a stalker or pretend to be nice as a total act when you really only have contempt, then don't take discussion of those as saying that that's what YOU are and then derail with how bad you must be. Repeat: It's not all about you.

Phyco's got it (yay Phyco!). Read what he said.

[Angelalex242]

It boils down to accountability. Whatever your station in life is, you are responsible for it. In good ways and bad ways. If you're a millionaire, you are responsible for it. If you're poor, you are responsible for that. If you're happily married, you are responsible for it. If you haven't had a date in 9 years, you're responsible for that too.

[phyco126]

In general I don't think guys realize when they creep us out

Bingo. Usually I don't realize what I'm doing is any different than what any other person would do until after the fact. Especially when you try to compare your actions to those that you see in chick flicks. Things that are okay in chick flicks are NOT okay in real life. I even wrote a pretty little article on it, cracked.com style.

Also, I never realized that girls could be creeped out by guys as early as high school. Also, what may creep you out seems perfectly harmless to me. Until you get into the really freaky things. I would never give up meat for someone. Actually, I have never tried to give anything up for someone.

I think I have a really good story to go with all this and one can really take alot from it. I'll have to do it tomorrow, as I got to head out the door for work now. Its kinda sad, but pretty much backs everything up that was said here.

[Werefrog]

Actually, I have never tried to give anything up for someone.

Funny you should say that... Phyco, this is an intervention. We all need you to give up (name of vice) for our sake and your sake.

[Nobiyuki77]

Truth

I'm sorry.

[Guild_Premier_Ghaleon]

I've been reading this on the sidelines for a while because I'm still pretty young. I don't really have a vast amount of experience and I don't really know if I'm capable of adding anything extra to the conversation, but Im bored and snowed in, so I figured, what the hell?

As I said before, I'm not immensely experienced with women. I'm only twenty, but regardless, I feel I'm lagging behind a majority of my pretty boy posse in what I feel I should have experienced up to now. That is likely my number one problem right there. I am with a crowd who has absolutely no problem attracting girls. All good looking dudes, a witty crowd, and overall easy to get along with. But am I angry or frustrated that I'm not as "good" as them? Nah. I imagine girls are drawn to them the same reason I like to hang out with them, so I guess it says I have a pretty good judge of character right? Yeah, I'm an optimist.

But, with that kind of mindset, Im sure the same is bound to happen to me. My friends like being with me because of the type of person I am. I have certain traits that they like, otherwise, why in God's name would we be out and about to begin with? Because of this, I can't imagine that theres a woman who wont feel the same. A girl who enjoys my company for the type of person I am, and I imagine eventually through enough trial and error that will flourish into a bigger and better relationship.

Now, I do recognize myself as the "nice guy" persona, but I don't feel women avoid me because of it. Let me tell you the type of person I am. I'm a big fella, closer to three-hundred pounds than two-hundred, I'm a huge fan of Death Metal Bands, and I'm a raaaaging anime nerd. I still manage to juggle a good social life with all of this, but overall, I haven't found too many girls who are drawn to me based off of my hobbies and other various attributes. It usually plays off that they are interested in one or two things that I am, but then completely despise another. Now, I dont mind if they are not neccesarily interested in the same things I am, but if I meet a girly who digs the same music as I am, but absolutely detests anime, how am I going to explain away my giant collection? Hmm, might be tricky. Now, vice versa, girl is a giant otaku, but haaaates my music. All those CD's I've got archived in my room might be an obstacle.

And this isn't to say I wont meet someone who isn't into one of my hobbies but is completely fine with me being interested in them. That would be cool too. But so far, any girl who has had potential interest in me has been turned off by something about me. Does that upset me? Do I assume no woman will ever love me because of the opinions of these select few girls? Do I make a generalized assumption that no one can ever possibly love me because no girls dig fat anime metal nerds? Nah. Just unlucky is all. It's just a matter of time.

[phyco126]

Actually, I have never tried to give anything up for someone.

Funny you should say that... Phyco, this is an intervention. We all need you to give up (name of vice) for our sake and your sake.

I can give up my massive DVD collection of pron. Wait, I don't have any. Hmmmmm. How about coffee? I don't drink that stuff though, at least not very often. HAH! I know, I'll give up my biggest vice of all... *breaks into a song* I'm possesive it isn't nice, you heard me saying that smoking was my only vice, but now it isn't true, now everything is new, and all I've learned, is over turned, I beg of yooooooooouuuuu..... don't go wasting your emoooooooootioooonnnns, lay all your love on meeeee.... it was shooting a sitting duck, a little small talk a smile and baby I was stuck, I still don't know what you've done to me, a grown up woman should never fall so easily.... *wanders off singing* Don't go wasting your emotions, lay all your love on me...

[phyco126]

Alright, all shenanigans aside, here is the story I promised.

In 2004 I worked at a nice 3 star hotel. I was making good money, going above and beyond the call of duty, and living it up with my newfound independence. The only thing that that was missing was a girl. Despite having a handful of friends, I was pretty lonely. That being said, in the typical man fashion, anytime I heard we got a new employee to work at the front desk I would immediately ask myself "Is she cute? I hope she is cute. Rawr." Or of course, the "Is she hot? I hope she is hot. Rawr." Yeah, I know, call me a pig, whatever.

So here I am, disappointed that all the female employees that came were cool and I could easily socialize with them, but I didn't find any of them attractive in any way. Then one day a new employee showed up. She wasn't considered attractive by any of the staff (males kept their mouths shut, but the women were happy to express it). She was kind of immature, just a hair younger than me, into the Wicca stuff, and to top it all off, she was kind of cute (to me, to reiterate).

At first I thought this was awesome, and while I didn't see myself with her at the time, I still kept the idea of dating her open. Well after working with her for a while, I was totally into her. Her personality was really the key, but in a way I was a bit annoyed that she didn't take her job as seriously as I did (at that particular moment, I lived for the job). Still, I was so attracted to her that I annoyed some of my co-workers just talking about it. Not the whole "Oh my god, I'm SOOOoooooo in love with her right now, I just want to marry her" kind of crap, but the "Wow, I really want to ask her out, but man, I'm soooo shy!" kind of crap.

Well I wasn't very secure with myself yet (not that much had changed in the past 5 years, haha), so I never did ask her out. I talked to my supervisor about it all the time and anyone who I didn't talk to about it already could see that I really liked her. Here is the key though; she was VERY interested in me too. She flirted with me (not the "just friends" flirt, I mean, heavy flirting. Like, she'd tap me a few times on my shoulder and giggle then say "Hehe, I'm hitting on you! *giggle*), and if that wasn't enough to convince you, she openly told everyone how much she liked me. It was so simple, all I had to do was ask her out. By the time it was all said and done, I guess you could say I loved her. I did ask her out to lunch at taco bell (we only had a 30 minute lunch break and it was just up the street) and she totally went with me. I really wish I could express how much interest she was showing me, but without anyone there, this is the best I could do.

Well, I was so convinced that she didn't like me that I just figured that she felt sorry for me, or was just a really friendly girl with everyone. When various staff members told me that she really liked me "that way" I brushed them off as just trying to set me up for some sick and cruel joke. I had a chance with her, a girl that liked me for me, and I blew it.

She was only there for a summer job during summer break at her college, so she eventually went back. Somewhere down the line, I messed up, or maybe she just got over me and I messed up there-after. Several months after she went back, I got very lonely. I knew I could get her number through work, mostly because it was listed in our computerized phone book system. Not her college number though, but her dad did work there as the head chef and his number was listed. I wasn't sure if it was appropriate or not, but it had to be as they do it all the time in those chick flicks. Still, better safe than sorry. So, I consulted with a couple of friends: a male and my female supervisor friend. The female said "Go for it, what is the worst that can happen?" and my male friend said "If you can get her number, do it!" So I did.

Well, I got her number and then called her. We talked for a minute or two, but she had to go to band practice. She did ask if I was the one who called her house for her number, and I said yes, and she make a big deal. She said I could call her back later or she would call me back later. Two weeks passed, so I called her (remember; don't call back the next day rule! I was totally on to that), this time she was losing her voice and was sick. Two weeks later, I called, and got only a voice mail. I left a message and gave her my number... that was it. I knew that a fourth time would be retarded.

Not sure what part of that freaked her out, but I am going to assume, all of it. One would think I would have learned then to stop consulting my friends, eh?

Well, to pour salt in the wound, I was late one too many times in May of 2005. As a result, I was suspended pending investigation. That was technical speak for "You’re fired." Anyway, I showed up at the end of my suspension in full uniform, but knowing I was fired I brought a change of clothes that I left in the car. So I went through all the technicalities, begged for my job to boot, and was what little dignity I had was escorted to my car to pick up my clothes. On the way back in, the girl was there, she had come back during my suspension. She saw me, and all she could say was "Charles?! I thought you were fired?!" in a tone that screamed "Oh god, I thought you were fired, CRAP!" At least, that’s what it sounded like to me. Anyway, that was the last I saw of her. I turned in my uniform, was re-escorted to my car, and the manager stayed until he could see I was off property.

Heh. Anyway, I've regretted not asking her out ever since. Obviously I have moved on, fallen in love with other girls over the years, dated only once... but to this very day, I still regret it. I also regret calling her too. Bleh.

So yeah, take this story. If anyone wants to tell me just how "Jesus mother and $%$^ that was creepy when you called her!" please go ahead, I'm still trying to figure out how much that rates on the "creepy" scale you girls have.

More importantly though, when we get so caught up in our insecurities, we often blind ourselves to those around us who show a genuine interest in who we really are.

[Nobiyuki77]

Man, I've got stories, but none as rough as that dude. My condolences.

[phyco126]

So I've been checking out craigslist, very impressed with it. Nobi, I suggest forcing yourself out of your comfort zone. Craigslist has personals, including platonic only. That could be a great place to start, some people just want to chat for a night to pass the time, others have expressed interest in actively hanging out.

[Werefrog]

Let us read the ad first, though. I don't want to see it show up Why Women Hate Men.