Any girls that have dated...i need to talk to someone

[Dying_Soul93]

I'm going to go cry now.

*cries*

Don't cry Phyco!!! *Hugs*

[Rimmie]

What're you crying for? I think those uruk hai are pretty good looking to me.

And defending the hobbits like that ("They're not for eating!!")... Lady Killer!!

[phyco126]

Sonic#, the hair is still a natural part of the body, whereas make up is not. Now if you where talking about dyeing your hair different colors verses cutting it short or whatever....

And the rest of you crack me up. Thanks Dying_soul93, I guess you shant get a friendship ring yet ^_^.

Back to the topic, my point is that a woman should have to feel the need to use makeup, she should feel pretty by her personality and natural looks. I'm not saying a woman who wears makeup is evil and stuff, nah, no way. Even I am awed by a the occasional girl who wears the appropiate make-up at an appropiate event. Oh, and to cut confusion, appropiate being the right kind of event to wear the right kind of make up. Because if you are just going to leave the house to grab a hamburger over at Burger King then maybe all you need is just a quick and light touch-up, whereas a date or a fancy dinner/ball will merit layers, lipstick, blush, foundation, etc etc etc.

There, no confusion on what I meant by appropiate! Hurrah! *dances*

[serphnx]

I've never been to 4chan, but nice ad hominem attack there. Great way to start off a post, why argue solely on logic when you can hurl around an insult to try and put the other person on the defensive, and impress your audience? Don't worry, I can do this too, it's coming at the end.

You tell me to dig up statistics, but instead of backing your own points up with numbers, you decide to use cliches as if they were the truth. Good going there too.

Your fourth paragraph (attractive unskilled vs unattractive skilled woman) is a complete non-sequitor. If the standard that you're complaining about is that men don't worry about looks, yet, if as I claim men lose out to attractive women as well, then it logically follows that men do indeed lose out to looks, and there is thus no double standard. Now granted you disagree with that premise, and that is fine, but that means this will go absolutely nowhere because we have no starting premises, and I can do the same for everything you say as well.

As for the attractive unskilled woman, I got that from the posts a few pages ago claiming some woman (Kari was it?) was pretty unskilled, but attractive, and this got her job. Now if she is unskilled, it follows that you believe that someone with greater skill did not get her position, be it a man or a less attractive woman. If you want to claim her job can only go to a woman, so only women are discriminated against by looks, you can claim that but I think it runs into a huge problem. By separating jobs out by sex, you take out any competition between the sexes for a job, so there is no basis of comparison (ie, women or men are discriminated against) and we can't even have a discussion. In essence, you can't claim men aren't judged by looks if an attractive but unskilled woman gets a job over a man because she recieved that job based on her attractiveness, a factor the man apparently did not possess if that were to occur.

Women can and do improve their looks dramatically. I know because I have woken up next to a girl that looked like a 10 the night before, and wound up looking like a 2. This has happened a few times to me, usually with asian women. Perhaps they are more masterful with makeup than white women, but I don't think that is the case, probably just that they're usually not as attractive and thus need more makeup. Irregardless of this fact, you could stop -Borgan- and whining that not being hot doesn't get you an advantage over other people, and instead start working hard so that you outperform your competition regardless of looks, just as men have been forced to do all their lives to get where they are. Tell me where the discrimination by looks is for doctors, or based on any form of standardized or blind testing/grading? Most of my aunts are doctors, and I don't think they are extremely attractive or anything, they just worked at it and succeeded instead of wasting time worrying about their makeup and how they're being discriminated against because of their looks boo hoo.

As for your last whining paragraph, I suggest you learn reading comprehension and go over my last post again, as it makes absolutely zero sense in that context. But I'll agree with you, and go out and make my millions because apparently I have a penis and you don't, so you are doomed to failure. Boy, your life must really suck, you have this huge inferiority complex that makes you go around wearing short skirts, insulting people on the internet, whining that men have it easier than you, then throwing little hissy fits when someone mentions hot women that are smarter than you getting through life easier because they're also hotter than you. I'm glad you took the time to make that last mindless, pointless post, as it's given my great amusement. You know what, maybe women should be judged by their looks after all, because if you're representing them, they sure fail based on intelligence. Now go show this to your husband so he can make it all better for you, and you two can yell angrily at your computer together, and threaten to beat me up over the internet. Oh look, I can make ad hominem attacks and assumptions too! Wowee.

[meg]

. . .

that was disgusting, serphnx. i can't even read through the whole of your post because my eyes insist on rolling themselves. if someone could post the CONTENT of his post without all the BS, i'd be much obliged.

[Kizyr]

. . .

that was disgusting, serphnx. i can't even read through the whole of your post because my eyes insist on rolling themselves. if someone could post the CONTENT of his post without all the BS, i'd be much obliged.

It's hard to do, but I'll try...

First, second, and last paragraphs are pointless, of the "you insulted me so I insult you" variety. That leaves three paragraphs in between.

Third paragraph: he's saying that men are also at a disadvantage based on appearances, because an attractive-yet-unskilled woman is more likely to be hired than an unattractive-yet-skilled man.

Fourth paragraph: argues a point that was never brought up in previous posts, and repeats the point in the third paragraph.

Fifth paragraph: I don't know. I was too busy trying to figure out if I should be offended by the following comment:

I know because I have woken up next to a girl that looked like a 10 the night before, and wound up looking like a 2. This has happened a few times to me, usually with asian women. Perhaps they are more masterful with makeup than white women, but I don't think that is the case, probably just that they're usually not as attractive and thus need more makeup.

The rest of it goes back to a mantra of "stop whining".

Now I'm going to get back to something marginally more enjoyable... Like writing code... KF

[Alunissage]

It's really hilarious seeing someone claim I'm unintelligent. I mean, really. I won't bother addressing your assessment of my traits based on your creative interpretation of my points because the people here who already know me can make their own judgment on whether you're being ridiculous.

Two things that immediately jump out of that last paragraph are that 1) I'm not talking about women who are both smarter and hotter than I am being more successful -- the issue is people who are getting by on looks in place of intelligence/qualifications, not those who possess both, and 2) "wearing short skirts", which I don't believe I've stated I do. Where do you GET this stuff?

You're not familiar with 4chan, so why are you getting so worked up about it? I just thought it would be amusing to post my husband's first reaction to your post, for the benefit of those who would get it. He did have other commentary, some of which I incorporated into my post.

If you were actually reading the discussion about Kari you would see that there is some disagreement on whether she has the skills or not, a topic I dropped since I don't have as much knowledge of the show as the others who posted do. (Though I might add that since then I've learned that she's had a spread in FHM, which I highly doubt is based on her technical knowledge and skill.) Your logic is totally lacking in claiming that if she's unskilled then she must've beaten out someone else who is skilled but less attractive: you do not know whether she had any such competition. For all you know she may have been the only applicant, or the most skilled applicant regardless of appearance. I know nothing about the circumstances of her hire and doubt this was the case, but my point is that your logic is faulty.

It's really hard to be sympathetic to the plight of waking up next to someone who looks less attractive after you got what you wanted than before. What that primarily indicates is that you're getting involved with people for the wrong reasons, if that bothers you so much. If you can't be bothered to get to know someone well enough to either already know what she looks like unenhanced or not care because she's special to you as an individual, then do without.

Kizyr: it's hard to say whether that's offensive, isn't it? I suppose because any sort of categorization by race is automatically tripwired. There's a conflict between that impulse and the one of people being allowed to find different traits attractive, which may well translate into considering people of one race categorically more or less attractive than people of another. There's also the question of what standard they're trying to look like with the makeup; for example, if Asian women are trying to make their eyelids look, well, Caucasian, it probably will take more of both effort and skill to do so, while Caucasian women would already be there. Is it racist to say that because, in this example, Caucasians are aiming to change their appearance less they are therefore less masterful in doing so, or that because Asians are trying to change their appearances more, they are worse off to begin with? Or is it simply bad logic again?

[Dying_Soul93]

Thanks Dying_soul93, I guess you shant get a friendship ring yet ^_^.

Umm...am i supposed to be happy 'bout that? O_o

[phyco126]

Thanks Dying_soul93, I guess you shant get a friendship ring yet ^_^.

Umm...am i supposed to be happy 'bout that? O_o

Just ask around, I'm sure someone will let ya know.

That comment about asian women that Kiz quoted, yeah... in all honesty I can't decided to find that offensive or what to make of it. I tend to find plenty of asian girls attractive, but I tend to not be attracted to them. Still, taking a girl to bed based on looks and then being horrified when they still don't look the same, if that is what you where saying, is pretty horrific for a man to do to any woman, regardless of age, race, or religion.

[Imperial Knight]

As for your last whining paragraph, I suggest you learn reading comprehension and go over my last post again, as it makes absolutely zero sense in that context. But I'll agree with you, and go out and make my millions because apparently I have a penis and you don't, so you are doomed to failure. Boy, your life must really suck, you have this huge inferiority complex that makes you go around wearing short skirts, insulting people on the internet, whining that men have it easier than you, then throwing little hissy fits when someone mentions hot women that are smarter than you getting through life easier because they're also hotter than you. I'm glad you took the time to make that last mindless, pointless post, as it's given my great amusement. You know what, maybe women should be judged by their looks after all, because if you're representing them, they sure fail based on intelligence. Now go show this to your husband so he can make it all better for you, and you two can yell angrily at your computer together, and threaten to beat me up over the internet. Oh look, I can make ad hominem attacks and assumptions too! Wowee.

To be perfectly frank, you come across as caring far more about (real or perceived) insults on the internet than anyone else in this topic. In any case your argument regarding attractive women is unconvincing because, among other things, you present assertions as though they were evidence. Nor does your argument about men having to work hard and succeed on merit address the possibility that there are factors which favor men over women (or those which might favor certain men over other men independent of merit) when it comes to getting jobs, etc.

[meg]

his comment about asian women bothers me less because it's asian women--everyone has their preferences, and i find asians to be incredibly sexy in general--and more because he is treating them as objects.

which, coincidentally, ties into our discussion. but not in the way he intended, i'm sure.

his complete and utter persistence in misunderstanding and disregarding the basics of the topic are the reason i've ignored his posts thus far. since he's unable to hold an intelligent conversation without devolving into a tantrum-throwing two year old, i'm going to continue to do so.

i'm not going to advise anyone else do the same--i'm curious to see how he conducts himself in the future. mostly because i'm starting to suspect that the reason he's not getting it is because he's one of the kind of guys we mentioned, and i'd like to see if he proves me right or not.

yes, i do like talking about people like they're not there.

oh, and clarification--alunissage isn't the one that mentioned wearing short skirts.

i am

[Kizyr]

If you were actually reading the discussion about Kari you would see that there is some disagreement on whether she has the skills or not, a topic I dropped since I don't have as much knowledge of the show as the others who posted do. (Though I might add that since then I've learned that she's had a spread in FHM, which I highly doubt is based on her technical knowledge and skill.) Your logic is totally lacking in claiming that if she's unskilled then she must've beaten out someone else who is skilled but less attractive: you do not know whether she had any such competition. For all you know she may have been the only applicant, or the most skilled applicant regardless of appearance. I know nothing about the circumstances of her hire and doubt this was the case, but my point is that your logic is faulty.

I'm only jumping back in on this because Mythbusters is one of my favorite shows {^^}.

Kari had a spread in FHM, but (and I've seen the photos from it), the airbrushed and "plastic" look that FHM does looks awful for her. She's far more attractive in any given episode of Mythbusters. Although, while she's on Mythbusters, she has some context behind her appearance which contributes to it (that point's important, 'cause I'm going to return to it later!).

Anyway, Kari did have the skills as a "Mythtern", but then again, so did all the other "Mythterns". And I still think what really set her apart is two things: 1) she had background in film and model-building/sculpture, and 2) she really got along with the rest of the crew. The latter is a big reason why Tori and Grant also became regulars (And Grant likewise had a leg up on account of his incredible expertise, though with electronics--he used to be a Battlebots champion, too). But, the Tori-Grant-Kari dynamic is great, because you can tell those three really enjoy working with one another.

Kizyr: it's hard to say whether that's offensive, isn't it? I suppose because any sort of categorization by race is automatically tripwired. There's a conflict between that impulse and the one of people being allowed to find different traits attractive, which may well translate into considering people of one race categorically more or less attractive than people of another.

Upon further reflection I nailed the reason why that comment stood out. It stood out because it implied that he sleeps around with women based solely on their looks, then gets upset that they don't look as good without makeup. The race bit was just incidental--could have just easily been talking about blondes vs brunettes, for instance. So, it was shallow and objectifying, yes, but certainly not racist.

Anyway, quite coincidentally, I've been thinking a lot on what factors into someone's attraction to other people. And the more I think about it, the more I figure that individuals have very little self-control over what they find personally attractive; a lot of it is either environmental (what society sets as the standards for beauty, which itself is very diverse) or of unknown origin (why do I find redheads attractive? I have no idea, but I just do).

What it boils down to is that I know what I find attractive, both in terms of body type and personality. But if I figure out why I find such-and-such attractive, it boils down to either some reason over which I have little control, or no identifiable reason at all! (This has a lot of possible implications when you start applying it to, say, same-sex attraction.)

Anyway, when we're talking about whether you think an individual is attractive, much of it is also based on context. In other words, a favorable opinion of a person will mean you're more likely to overlook their flaws and see them as more appealing; an unfavorable opinion means the reverse. Hence why I think Kari Byron is way more appealing in any given episode of Mythbusters than when she's all airbrushed-up in FHM; when I know she's going to be all enthusiastic about carrying out experiments, I'd rather see that.

[Alunissage]

Yes, I expect you're correct and I was just getting distracted by the race aspect of the statement when it was the other part which was the cause of the reaction. Well, I already stated my opinion of the rest of it.

Meg, I'm honored to have been mistaken for you. =D

Kiz, the book I linked earlier, Survival of the Prettiest, discusses why some traits are attractive from a biological or sociological viewpoint. Whether or not you agree with the author's conclusions, it's a really interesting read. Next time my copy surfaces I'll have to see if there are bits which are succinct enough to be quoted for discussion. One I remember was the discussion on why thinness is currently seen as attractive even though at heart it does not necessarily evoke a stronger or more positive reaction than curviness, namely that it's an indication of status, just as being rounder was the sign of the wealthy and upper-class when the average peasant was near starvation. Not so many adults have time to exercise if their jobs are sedentary, and that same lack of time and perhaps money will usually result in eating less healthily, e.g., fast food. I'm sure there's also an association with youth as well, as it's relatively easier to stay skinny when one has a teenager's metabolism, so the slender will look younger if you're not paying attention.

My guess for the appeal of the redhead is partly comparative rarity (though this wasn't always seen as a good thing; cf. that bit in Anne of Green Gables where she was always hating being a carrot-top, and of course the social status of the Irish probably also contributed to it being negative) and partly similar reasons to blonde women being considered to have a leg-up in attractiveness: because both blond and red hair in children often darken to brown in adulthood, so being blond as an adult carries a suggestion of youth and innocence. Of course, adult redheads have had a reputation for fieryness for decades, but I'd guess that's associated with the stereotypical Irish temper.

[Werefrog]

But I'll agree with you, and go out and make my millions because apparently I have a penis and you don't, so you are doomed to failure. Boy, your life must really suck, you have this huge inferiority complex...

From Freud to Adler in five seconds flat. Any more pearls of wisdom, Dr. Zigmund?

P.S. I can produce stats to back up some of the things about people who are attractive have an edge in life. Note: my stats apply to both sexes, but it proves one of your assumptions wrong (that society doesn't judge people based on appearance). I will provide said stats after typing up notes for film studies.

[Jenner]

As much as Serph's flamboyant sexism distresses me, it's actually heartening. It's good to see discussion on L-Net again, maybe we need more morally deficient individuals like him around. Still, adolescent name calling aside, I find it amusing that Serph can claim that double-standards have no ground then comment how upset he was that a woman he slept with was unattractive, 'cause he would have never chosen an unattractive woman for that job regardless of her credentials. Not that it takes many credentials to go to bed with some guy who won't appreciate you.

I know, that attractiveness is a huge factor in the job market. I resent it because I'm ugly. I'll actually have to work and put major effort into degrees etc to get the same job as a pretty girl because I am absolutely hideous. I've noticed the atractiveness prejudice in class too, pretty folk are called on first and my hand hangs in the air. I remember in high school how teachers would always call on boys and very rarely on girls (unless they were pretty.) I was often overlooked. The bias exists, it's as real today as it was in the 1920's. But at least now we're trying to move forward as a culture.

[Kizyr]

Kiz, the book I linked earlier, Survival of the Prettiest, discusses why some traits are attractive from a biological or sociological viewpoint. Whether or not you agree with the author's conclusions, it's a really interesting read. Next time my copy surfaces I'll have to see if there are bits which are succinct enough to be quoted for discussion.

Please do! I don't read so much, but I do watch a ton of documentaries (albeit biased towards history). Some of them have focused on things like the biological and sociological reasons for perceptions of attractiveness and sexuality (many of which can be easily attributed to some evolutionary reason). And much of it is in the same vein as the points articulated in Survival of the Prettiest (I'd wager the same researchers were behind each, too). All that's fascinating to me, whether or not I agree with the conclusions reached.

It's also what lends to my current belief that there's very little individual control that goes into what we find attractive. It's raising a lot of interesting philosophical questions for me, too. Much of my personal philosophy is based around a strong belief in free will, and something so major being removed from free will has some serious implications for that.

My guess for the appeal of the redhead is partly comparative rarity ... and red hair in children often darken to brown in adulthood, so being blond[/red] as an adult carries a suggestion of youth and innocence. Of course, adult redheads have had a reputation for fieryness for decades, but I'd guess that's associated with the stereotypical Irish temper.

My best guess is that it's a combination of all three of those reasons. KF

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

Serphnx, this is a forum. The result of almost ANY argument with depend on which person has the most friends.

[Alunissage]

It's also typical for forum discussions to have at least one person attempting to invalidate the whole discussion by claiming the participants are incapable of thinking of anything more objective than a popularity contest.

[meg]

also typical of forum discussions: flame wars.

i'd like to think we're atypical.

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

It's also typical for forum discussions to have at least one person attempting to invalidate the whole discussion by claiming the participants are incapable of thinking of anything more objective than a popularity contest.

Your friendships with your fellow members are definitely SOME of the reasoning you're being backed up by so many others while serphnx sits there like a man in the coliseum surrounded by lions.

I'm not saying i disagree with you in your arguments with him. That certainly isn't the case.

What i was getting at is even if he were arguing extremely well and making great points then chances are your level of aid would boost significantly. Arguments are competitive and people continue until they feel they CAN'T make themselves believe they lost or they feel they've won.

Do i think you're followed blindly? No. My logic is that since they're your friends they're reading your posts with a more open mind. I bet the people that argued on your side put more thought into your words than his.