Neighbor indicted over MySpace suicide girl

[phyco126]

All of you guys are making excuses, what's worse is their based off of all the nonsense in the media.

And what are YOU basing it off of? A poor education of the psychology behind this? Off a biased opinion that the mentally reduced deserve whatever it is that they did? Show me your credentials, your research, your scientific studies and your educational experience. Don't stop there, how about you also share your personal experiences with the mentally reduced as well?

At least I can respectfully disagree and have a civilized conversation with G_P_G, I can easily see where he is coming from and I understand his reasoning as well. Not that I have to agree and claim it is wrong and that he should change it, but at least I am respectful about it. G_P_G is the same way, at least I would hope, as he has also respectfully disagreed and countered some of my points. Both of us come from experience in the matter.

Hell, even B_G isn't as ignorant or arrogant in this same subject as you are.

How old are you even? Do you even have ANY education on the subject? You are coming across not just as heartless, but as an arrogant and ignorant fool as well.

You actually remind me of a few people in my Psychology class. I was usually the ONLY one who took a particular side (the side of the mentally ill.) Can you guess who got the A in the class? Me. I was right in about 95% of the arguments on the subjects being discussed, and there was quite a few of them. I was called an idiot, but funny how that experience and education added with their ignorance would equate to my A and their Cs and Ds.

Am I a genius? No, I certainly have my flaws. Kiz and some of the others can readily assist with recaps on what they are. My logic certainly isn't perfect, and I have been on the losing side of an argument here before. Though at least I can improve myself willfully (take note: I am trying).

You on the other hand, you come across as some uneducated ignorant fool who thinks that the guilty should be rewarded and the innocent be punished.

So no, I am not basing this off the media. Most of the opinions here are either educationally based facts, personal experiences, or both.

As for B_G's rape discussion, I am beginning to see where B_G is coming from. Enough for me to say I will not be involved with that discussion, but I can make sense of his logic.

Edit:

I'm going to igonre the fact that you called my reasearch ridiculous meanwhile pasting a link to wikipedia

Wow... I hate to say it, but wikipedia has better and far more accurate resources than you are providing at the moment.

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

Phyco has good points that would often come across better if his posts weren't seething with emotion. Play some relaxing mood-music when you post in debates, man!

[Kizyr]

what i was meaning to say was not guilty, but guilty (my wording in the origonal post was a little off) because they still are commited, even if they find you not guilty they still comit you to a nut house. I was trying to demonstrate that its not a real excuse.

I'm going to igonre the fact that you called my reasearch ridiculous meanwhile pasting a link to wikipedia

Oh man, you're hilarious.

Really, you're even having trouble spelling. Much less making a coherent argument. Besides trying to backtrack (badly--your cover-up means your original point doesn't even make sense), you really say nothing of substance. I should also add that the Wikipedia link puts the issue in language that you're more likely to understand. Are you really going to understand if I put a link here to a psychiatric or legal journal?

Here, let me help. This is the argument you're trying to make:
"Mental illness is not an excuse, because people who commit a crime due to their mental illness are still punished for it by being institutionalized."

There, makes more sense, right?

Now, the first problem with your argument is this: institutionalization is not a punishment, it's a treatment. If it's untreatable, then institutionalization will at least try to prevent the person from being a danger to himself or to others.

The second problem is this: mental illness is not used as an 'excuse'. It's referred to as a mitigating circumstance (look that up if you don't understand what it means). The purpose of bringing it up in a trial, for instance, is to determine the degree of control someone has over their actions that would lead up to an alleged crime.

Anyway, I really don't expect you to understand any of this. But, it's useful, I think, for other folks to understand why your logic is so horribly flawed.

If i tell women that they should be mindful of who they hang out with and to keep an eye on their sobriety and do their best to avoid the situations that girls so often get raped in, i could potentially make progress. If i manage to find a rapist and tell him that he's an awful person for it, i have the hardest time imagining that i've caused him to turn over a new leaf.

Here's the central problem with what you're trying to argue... Most cases of rape occur when the victim knows the rapist. And, it's usually about control far more than about sex.

What you're doing is analogous to constructing an opinion regarding abortion based solely on, say, life-or-death circumstances, when most abortions are elective. It's not that it's wrong, per se, or that it's based on things that don't happen. But, your argument is based on something that occurs in relatively few cases of rape.

If you disagree with part of this, let me know which one and why and we can take it from there. KF

[Katze]

I'm not sure how this discussion went from being about suicide to being about rape, but...

I don't agree with the act of suicide. I'm not sure I would call it cowardly or selfish, but I believe that life is always worth living, both for yourself and for your loved ones. I hate to bring starving children from third world countries into this, but I'm pretty sure that their lives are filled with far more suffering than most people on this earth. And yet many of them are doing everything in their power to stay alive. I don't think that being 13 justifies anything, as I'm sure many young girls wouldn't react so terribly to being bullied on the internet. Being emotionally immature really only goes so far as an excuse for overreacting. However, it doesn't make her stupid or weak. Everyone makes bad decisions, and I just think that suicide happens to be a very bad one.

Mental illnesses such as depression, however, are entirely different. People suffering from those aren't in their right state of mind, so I won't judge their decisions. If the girl was suffering from depression, and it was suggested she might have been, then I don't think there was anything that could have been done. Her parents could have (and perhaps did) made a big effort to help her recover from her depression, but they still can't watch her every move. Either way, the entire situation is unfortunate.

Also, the woman who assisted in the bullying? Shame on her. I can't believe a grown woman would do such a thing, but I guess it happens. I definitely feel that she needs to be punished in some way, but I'm not sure what the best course of action would be.

As for rape? Of course it isn't acceptable under any circumstances, ever. And since many rapists rape women to feel powerful and in control, not necessarily because they just want sex, dressing provocatively probably isn't as big of an issue as people may think. However, I do believe that women should take precautions in all situations. Carry something (legal) on you, if you plan to drink at a party make sure a sober friend will be there to watch out for you, be careful with your drinks, etc. Hell, just make sure all of the doors are locked when you're home alone at night, since even someone you know could come and try to assault you. Should women (or anyone, really) have to take so many precautions? No. But they do, so they should. If there are things you can do to help prevent a bad situation such as rape, then there really isn't any reason not to.

[Guild_Premier_Ghaleon]

I agree with points from all the accumulated posts concerning the rape issue, and the suicide debate as well outside of Exigence' posts of meaningless drivel. I find it interesting that Kiz' credibility was attacked because he linked a Wikipedia article out of convenience, but did you actually take the time to look it over? It's true that anyone can alter information on any Wiki site, but if you notice something, most articles site the sources at the bottom and also provide numerous other links that appeal to the readers. Not only that, but at least he provided some form of information to back up his argument.

As for the rape debate, I can also see what B_G is trying to say. He is clearly not siding with the assailant, but he is saying there should be some form of responsibility in the hands of the victim. I agree with this to a certain degree. It's certainly true that no one should have to take precautions, but unfortunately that isn't the case. If someone is among an unfamiliar crowd, they should be wary. They shouldn't have to restrict themselves, but they should stay sober enough so that they can discern danger from safety. This is only one scenario though. It is true that most cases of rape are brought on by a long relationship between peers, and the assailant being as sick as they are take what they want without consent. I'm sure everyone can agree outside of different opinions, that there is a whole hell of a lot of evil in the world.

[meg]

. . . geez. drop off the face of the earth for a little while, and things get so depressing.

hi. so, like, my 80 year old grandfather, who was my father figure, and my favorite person in the whole world, blew his brains out about a month or two ago. it wasn't an act of cowardice. and it wasn't an act of selfishness. i am wearied just glancing over this thread, but i feel the need to clarify some things.

suicide being defined as a cowardly, selfish act is a social construct, like most other things. we call it that, because we don't want anyone doing it. but having known several suicides, and a few attempted suicides, i do not believe for a second that people who do it are cowards or selfish. there is simply a breaking point. we are complicated creatures.

my grandfather, for example, watched cancer destroy his wife almost 20 years earlier. it started as something easy enough to fix--ovarian cancer. but my family tends to avoid doctors. so it spread to her colon. by the time she went to the doctor, it was too late. my mother and my grandfather did their best for her. but when the combination of drugs and pain completely altered her personality, they looked at their options. she was wholly living on machines by that point. breathing, sustenance, excretion--all machines. so, they removed her feeding tube. gramma died after two weeks of cursing and spite.

grampa was healthy as an ox until his 80th birthday. then suddenly, pills, and doctors, and the world had changed, and mom was still recovering from her last surgery and risking her health to help him wade through the mess of hospital visits. he had colon cancer, and surgery to remove two-thirds of his lower intestine. any more than that, and he'd have been stuck with a colostomy bag.

and still, it wasn't done. he fell sick shortly after the surgery. wasn't getting better. was watching mom run herself ragged (for those not in the know, my mother is on disability. she's had 5 back surgeries, a neck surgery, and countless other things done to her to try to fix things), and no doubt was remembering how hard gramma's death was.

he wrote mom one note. scrapped it--mom would later find its pieces as she had to clean out his house--wrote another. and then mom got to spend the night sobbing in a police station while they questioned her as to whether she'd killed her own father.

it was a hard path. but, consider the alternative: a long, painful, bankrupting death in a cold hospital. though i suspect what he feared most was that two weeks at the end--where he might have spewed the same things at mom that gramma spewed 20 years earlier. obviously, that's conjecture. but i know my grampa. he was in two wars. served in both the navy and the air force. raised four kids. lived with an alcoholic wife. continued on alone after she died and the kids all moved away. helped raise me and my brother when mom moved back near him. he wasn't a coward. or selfish.

but there's a breaking point for all people. and many many many "mitigating factors." i find attempts at judging this girl through a news article to be fruitless and ridiculous. relent.

[Alunissage]

Meg, I'm so sorry to hear that you and your family had to go through that, both previously and recently.

I had temporarily forgotten that my own grandfather, near the end of the 18-month deterioration of all of his nerves, had started quietly starving himself to take himself off my mom and uncle's hands sooner. When he learned about hospice he decided to let nature take its course without special help, since he would be able to stay home. (Then he died just a few days later from pancreatic cancer that was discovered just that week.) But yes, life was certainly not worth living for him, and I suspect the only reason he didn't try harder earlier was the worry that his kids would end up in the same situation as your mom, being suspected of killing him. Well, that and his almost complete physical debilitation by then; he could barely hold a spoon.

[Guild_Premier_Ghaleon]

First off Meg, I'm sorry for your loss. While I can't really tie my friend into the same category as your grandfather, I can say I at least partially know how you feel. After reading over your story, I can buckle a little and say not all suicidals are cowardly or selfish. But with all honesty, while I didn't personally know your grandfather, it seems like grief wasn't the only thing that drove him down that particular path. It sounds to me like while he was devastated with the loss of his wife, and was also enduring a great amount of pain, he was more concerned with your mothers health. He didn't want her to end up making herself ill for him, and in that sense he is truely admirable. Like I've said in several of my previous posts, my perception of those who kill themselves is likely because of my experiences and the way I've reacted to them.

However, while I may have softened a little with my judgment, I have in no way been swayed completely. I still see it as being cowardly in most cases. Just a means of escape for those who can't endure the hardship they have encountered, and I feel that while they may have been relieved of their burden, forcing anguish increased exponentially on others around them is just not something I think should be forgiven. Again, I see that certain exceptions need to be made. I am in noway branding your Grandfather as being a weak man. I certainly couldn't imagine having to endure as much hardship as you have described him facing. But, that isn't always the case. Sometimes, it's a chosen option that could have, and should have for that matter, been avoided.

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

If there is an unselfish way to kill yourself, it certain isn't with a gun. Somebody has to clean that up and i seriously doubt they'll be enthused about it.

Show me how i'm wrong, if i am, but i'd say that comparing your grandfathers situation with Megan Meier's is like a slap to his face. Like going up to a newly-made amputee and showing him that you stubbed your toe.

[meg]

sometimes i want to shake you, BG.

gramps was 80. all he had was his dad's pistol. i don't think it even occurred to him that he could do things such as overdose. besides that, you actually need to know a couple things about the drugs you have in order to pull it off successfully. what was he supposed to do, walk up to his neighbor and be like "hey, man, do you know what kind of pill you have to take, and how much, in order to successfully off yourself without throwing it back up? and hey, do you happen to know how long it will take? my daughter swings by here every day, i don't want her catching me while i'm dying, she might call the hospital to get my stomach pumped." he didn't have the internet, and his ceilings are too low to hang from.

i'm not saying he was anything like that girl. i'm saying, you guys don't know her, don't know her head, don't know her thoughts or problems. how would grampa killing himself look to an outsider? huh, well, okay, so you've got this 40ish woman who happens to be struggling financially thanks to her medical bills, and this doddering old father with some money tucked away that she can't get to until he dies . . . . well guys, we've established a motive, take her down to the station. my aunt sue is angry with gramps--she sees this as something he did TO my mother. but she wasn't there when gramma was dying. she doesn't know anything about him, because she ran off when she 16 to join a gang and go to jail. how is she supposed to understand him? he was the silent stoic type.

you guys just don't know. and you CAN'T know. because she's dead.

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

sometimes i want to shake you, BG.

gramps was 80. all he had was his dad's pistol. i don't think it even occurred to him that he could do things such as overdose. besides that, you actually need to know a couple things about the drugs you have in order to pull it off successfully. what was he supposed to do, walk up to his neighbor and be like "hey, man, do you know what kind of pill you have to take, and how much, in order to successfully off yourself without throwing it back up? and hey, do you happen to know how long it will take? my daughter swings by here every day, i don't want her catching me while i'm dying, she might call the hospital to get my stomach pumped." he didn't have the internet, and his ceilings are too low to hang from.

i'm not saying he was anything like that girl. i'm saying, you guys don't know her, don't know her head, don't know her thoughts or problems. how would grampa killing himself look to an outsider? huh, well, okay, so you've got this 40ish woman who happens to be struggling financially thanks to her medical bills, and this doddering old father with some money tucked away that she can't get to until he dies . . . . well guys, we've established a motive, take her down to the station. my aunt sue is angry with gramps--she sees this as something he did TO my mother. but she wasn't there when gramma was dying. she doesn't know anything about him, because she ran off when she 16 to join a gang and go to jail. how is she supposed to understand him? he was the silent stoic type.

you guys just don't know. and you CAN'T know. because she's dead.

I like what you've done here. B_G looks like some really crazy emoticon.

I can understand why he chose the gun now, but you'd think that he'd have thoughts like "Who's going to find this disgusting mess? Will he/she be traumatized? How long before they sleep well again?".

I can sympathize with your grandma for his situation and i find him commendable there. I'd have went into a room that'd be easier to clean like the kitchen or bathroom or something, though. then again..he might have.


AND KIZYR, before i forget, I know that most rapes are from people you know but what would you have me say "Ya know your friends of the opposite sex? Well always be uneasy and watchful of their behavior or you may get raped."?

MiaOne said something about it only being a problem if predators are there but predators don't label themselves and friends are even less suspectable.

Now i'm also not saying that women should FULLY avoid dangerous situations. Just be prepared for them. For instance, i approach and talk to strangers a lot. I know that i could end up raped or killed or possibly other unspeakable things, but i do carry a weapon.

I hope for a world where everyone can live together without being nervous and suspicious of one another. I feel socializing with strangers is important, but i consider safety to be quite important as well.

[Jenner]

When one is young, and teenish, and female, the world is a tragic and judgmental place. Even the simplest humiliation can strike someone to the core of their hearts and make them believe that, yes, their life as they know it is over and they can barely show their faces in public ever again. When someone is consistently harassing and abusing you, and you can't see any way out you're supposed to just shut down and take it? I'm sorry, some people aren't that strong. I know I wasn't.

I tried to commit suicide in 8th grade for that same reason. No one was nice to me, everyone picked on me, my life was -Dragon Diamond-, and I tired to kill myself. Y'know, it didn't feel cowardly at all, it felt desperate and despairing. It felt like the only thing I could do to make it stop.

My question is, if they can press this man for it, will they press charges on the cruel children like sharks in the water who torment people into killing themselves every year the same? Will there finally be some legal action for bullying? Perhaps it will finally make people stop and think about what driving a person into a dark emotional corner from which there is no perceivable escape will do to them? Perhaps it will create a social conscience? No, I guess it won't. Looks like for the true predators and asshats in this world, all it does is create scorn, bitterness, and humor. It just makes them laugh. In light of this, I'll wear my scar proudly.

[meg]

the only things my mom said about finding him are that grampa left her clues in the house to prepare her before finding him, and that my stepdad cleaned it up. i think he did it in his bed. because he comes from the era of spouses sleeping separately, and there were two beds in his bedroom (he didn't change a single thing in the house after gramma died. the only changes were done by his daughters), yet when i visited after his death, there was one bed/bedstand, and another empty bedstand.

which meant all my stepdad had to do was chuck some mattresses. my grampa was a thoughtful guy.

[phyco126]

B_G, none of my posts in this thread is emotionally charged. I have reasons that I could be, but, no, I won't.

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

the only things my mom said about finding him are that grampa left her clues in the house to prepare her before finding him, and that my stepdad cleaned it up. i think he did it in his bed. because he comes from the era of spouses sleeping separately, and there were two beds in his bedroom (he didn't change a single thing in the house after gramma died. the only changes were done by his daughters), yet when i visited after his death, there was one bed/bedstand, and another empty bedstand.

which meant all my stepdad had to do was chuck some mattresses. my grampa was a thoughtful guy.

Your stepdad did the cleaning? Don't you have to let the cops and everyone come in and take care of all of that?

[meg]

the cops came, but she didn't mention them cleaning. she said she sat on the front porch and sobbed for hours though, so who knows, they may have cleaned a bit too.

[MiaOne]

I'm so confused as to why who cleaned up after the death of Meg's grandfather, what kind of weapon he used, and how he did it has any relevance to the point she was trying to make. Like it could warrant him any less of a man for what he did in his life or what led him to make a difficult decision like that merely by pointing out trivial inconveniences that may or may not have affected her family. I understand where you're coming from B_G, but don't beat around the bush just because clearly you very well may be in the wrong about this.

On one had I personally can see how all acts that we commit as human beings as being of the self and ultimately selfish, but who really cares? Why is that so bad in the first place? Sure he was thinking of himself to end the pain, to end his family's pain which would in turn ease his passing for himself...but I think there are acts of great compassion that can be found when we do things for ourself...things that we need to feel whole and at peace. I'm not saying that all selfishness is a good thing, merely that of course we can look as an act like this as selfish because, like everything we do, it is of the self.

My little rant may make no sense right now, I had a nervous breakdown earlier today and am not making much sense to myself, but I promise you it has a point.

And B_G when I was talking about it only being a problem when there's a predator around I was still referring to the unknowns and the friends...it was a negative term I used to generalize anyone who would do something like that.

Also, at my college about two years ago there were two guys who decided to go out to the bars together, they got a few drinks (nothing really heavy) but unfortunately for them those few drink were spiked, by the bartender. Later that night the bartender took them to the rooms above where he lived and raped them both as they passed out. Are they held responsible? They went to a bar together and just had a few drinks over some conversation and were attacked. I don't see how the rapist in this case is any different from a guy who receives sexual attention from a girl only to be told "No" and going all the way anyway. I've been in a similar situation before (although it did not escalate to that kind of level) and believe me just because I decided that at the last moment it didn't feel right that I could be held somewhat responsible for what could have happened to me and "should have known better than to put myself in that situation." No means no whether you drug it out of someone or simply ignore their plea. Sometimes we change our minds or we feel like wearing that short skirt that night or we want to go out and party with our friends without a care in the world and our decision should be respected, not ridiculed. Because in the end the victims did not hurt anyone, its the rapist who inflicted pain...that is who should be held responsible.

I do understand where you're coming from on this too though B_G, we should be mindful of our situations and not be taught that its okay to purposely put ourselves in dangerous situations because eventually it'll come back to bite us in the ass, but I guess the way you said what you said a couple of pages back kind of spiked a rage in me because I don't know how many times I've heard that excuse being used and the rapists sentence was reduced only to have it happen again...to people I personally know.

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

I like how casually you threw in that you had a nervous breakdown. I figured the text version of that story included caps and exclamation points.

As far as Meg's grandfather goes, i've already said that i commend him for decisions in his situation. I just couldn't keep from remarking on the grossness of headshots and how miserable it'd have to be to clean up after one.

I'm not one to consider selfishness bad. I'm actually quite a fan of it.

Party attendees usually hit on you and try to see if they can get it with consent first. There are signs that can be picked up on by paying even minimal attention. A bartender is a bit different. I also recognize a womans right to be a cocktease, but women have to recognize our right to dislike it. Respected rather than ridiculed? Well men will likely always get annoyed and make criticisms after that happens.

[Alunissage]

You know, it strikes me that we have women in this thread saying that yes, depression exists and makes you do things that seem extreme (such as suicide), especially when you're young, and we have men (?) saying that it's stupid for someone to be emotionally affected to that degree instead of walking away, etc. We have women talking about the threat of rape and the blaming tone that rape victims bring it on themselves and we have men (well, one man) saying that they should read the signs, characterizing choosing not to become intimate as "dickteasing" and saying that men will get annoyed and make criticisms -- I'm not sure what this is in response to, but I'm guessing at the decision of the woman not to engage in further intimacy, as if she owes it to him. Except, of course, it's often not just criticism that happens next.

I'm getting sidetracked. The point is, there's a pretty significant gender divide here. To take the most obvious first, the group of people (women) who are the primary targets of rapists are going to see the threat of rape a lot differently from those who are privileged enough (men) not to be in fear of it constantly. And to be honest, I have a really hard time seeing the more or less strictly theoretical, uninvolved commentary of those who do not have to live with rape as a constant threat as having anywhere near the validity of those who do. Just as I as a Caucasian am much less perceptive of subtle racism than a person of color is, a member of the privileged, not-generally-raped class (men) is not likely to see the real extent of the threat of rape or be in a position to plausibly tell members of the nonprivileged sex class what is and isn't the case, or what is reasonable and unreasonable.

For the less obvious one, I would hazard a guess that teenaged girls are far more likely to be depressed than teenaged boys, just as women are more likely to be depressed than men. There's always a ton of pressure on females to conform -- incidentally, saying that all that should be just shrugged off is another statement that's far easier for the dominant, privileged group to make than for those who face real, severe consequences for not fullowing the rules -- and it probably reaches some apex in adolescence. Besides the usual hormonal confusion and all, it's the age of the clique, the body-image harassment, etc. Some of the significant differences in how boys and girls are treated from youth start coming to fruition then, like encouraging boys to be aggressive (don't be a sissy) and girls to be submissive (be a nice young lady). The more I think of this the more I wonder that anyone could be surprised at what Megan did.

Anyway, what I'm getting at is that I suspect that the problem a couple of posters have had with seeing why depression would make such a difference is that they've probably not experienced anything like it. When you're part of the dominant class, no matter what your place in that class is, you're not likely to have felt the same sense of despair and worthlessness that the people in the class below you have. And that class division is very much along gender lines (also race and wealth, of course, but even with those being equal gender division remains).

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

When i mention a cocktease, i'm talking only talking about two instances. Girls that think it's funny to build it up and then go nowhere with it and girls that decide at the last minute that she'd rather not. Is that her decision? Absolutely. Is it still frustrating? Yep. I don't like how women act like we can't complain about that.

Are you certain that you aren't projecting your own feelings and concerns onto the rest of women? I'd figure that if women actually were in constant fear of rape, they'd be cautious and would see the signs more quickly than anyone else.