Neighbor indicted over MySpace suicide girl

[meg]

. . . do you have any idea what being in constant fear of something does to a person? fear is good for people in small doses. "i am not leaning on that railing, we are fifty stories up and it looks wobbly." "i am not doing that ridiculous bike stunt just to impress my friends; i have never done it before and will break something."

she may not be speaking for all women, BG, but she speaks for me. i live on a ground floor apartment in a bad neighborhood. the first thing my mom said when she saw the place was "oh no, meg, my cousin was raped in a ground floor apartment." thanks mom. we already signed the lease. that's exactly what i want in my head for the next year.

i lived the first three months here in fear. i didn't know the area. i didn't know the people. i heard gunshots at night. upstairs there were strange crashes--which i would learn later was my neighbor being beaten by her abusive ex-boyfriend--and because i work from home as a freelance artist, i have to be here all the time. we have these huge windows, and i'm not allowed to open the blinds because if my husband comes home and sees them open, he panics, because it means that anyone can look inside and know that i am there, and i am all alone.

we have two bolt locks on the door, but so what? there's no security system that will go off if someone smashes through a window. i know, because my neighbor's ex smashed her windows one night.

being afraid all the time is no way to live. i finally had a breakdown because my fear was infecting everything--i could not function. i made myself leave the apartment and explore the area. i made myself buy lunch at a local restaurant.

now i know the area. and, thanks to my upstairs neighbor screaming, and me and another neighbor running to her aid, i also know some people. it is not reassuring. this is a bad place to live, and as soon as we can afford to, we're leaving it. but you know, it wasn't this place that taught me to be afraid of men. it was my childhood friend whose father raped her as a little girl. it was the the men who stalked me as a grocery store cashier. it was the taxi cab driver that got angry with me when i ran from his "romantic gestures"--i hope i don't need to express how scary it is to receive such attention from someone you're trapped in a car with--and that's just a few examples.

i'm curious, BG--what are these mystical rapist clues we should be picking up? i'd love to stop being afraid of every loitering group of men i pass on the street. and since you seem to know exactly how to spot them, you should let us know here, because it's not exactly part of standard school curriculum. most of us have to learn the hard way. and you know, learning the way--there's usually some trauma clouding the thinking we need to do afterwards.

[phyco126]

Somewhere someone mentioned that women should carry a weapon with them.

I suppose I should point out that in some states, weapons are illegale to carry. And what about a gun? More people die by their own gun than by another. Also, in the Security Field, I have seen some VERY jumpy people. God knows what would happen if they had a gun, how many innocent lives would be taken if everyone carried them?

[meg]

weapons are only useful if the person carrying them knows how to use, has the nerve to use them, and more importantly, how to keep them. a security guard told my neighbor to get a gun, but, i know her well enough to know she wouldn't shoot to kill. she'd wave it around thinking it would scare her ex off, and he'd just take it from her and beat her with it, or worse.

that was the reason they didn't let us have even pepper spray on my college campus.

defense courses would be more useful, but even that has a limit.

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

Proper self-defense courses are a great idea and understanding your weapon of choice is obvious enough.

Clues? Well clearly you won't know from a DISTANCE (unless he's publicly nude), but here goes.. Body language and tone of voice. If you're expressing disinterest, your body language and tone probably shows is even better. If they're not backing off at all, you can tell they don't care.

[meg]

those really aren't proper indicators. obviously, if a man is sneering at a woman because she's telling him to back off, then he's no one she should hang around. but most guys aren't dumb enough to be that obvious.

besides that, that's really too vague to be useful. my stepdad, who is easily one of the best guys i know, chased my mom for months before she finally agreed to a date. at the time she was a bartender who had a strict clause of never dating patrons, as well being one of us who learned things about men the hard way, and agreeing to a date with him was one of the better decisions she's made.

i also had to be "chased"--i only agreed to a date with my now-husband because a friend vouched for him. most guys are raised knowing they're going to have to chase or otherwise talk a girl into being with them because girls are raised to say no (which is part of where that awful phrase "yes means no" comes from). so women expect men to be pushy. knowing how pushy is too pushy is one of those things we get to learn the hard way.

meanwhile, my father, who is easily one of the worst men i know, is outrageously charming when he wants to be. you, for all your bluntness and rough edges, may be underestimating how good men can be at manipulating. none of the five women my father married knew he was a liar or an alcoholic until after he'd married them.

people don't all have the same signals and warning signs. every time you read about a rapist, a serial killer, or some other kind of abuser getting caught, and it has reactions from neighbors and friends, the reaction is always astonishment.

[Guild_Premier_Ghaleon]

Alright, this is starting to get to me. I know that rape is a big issue and everything, but from alot of the accumulated posts, it seems as if men are perceived as being a terrible God forsaken race that are only out there to feed off the anguish and misfortune of others, like we are just some kind of sadistic marionette who use women as play things. Now I know some of you have had experiences that have made you shy away from men due to betrayed trust, but please realize, we're not all dogs. x.X Some of us are actually nice people. I promise. ._.;

[Sonic#]

Alright, this is starting to get to me. I know that rape is a big issue and everything, but from alot of the accumulated posts, it seems as if men are perceived as being a terrible God forsaken race that are only out there to feed off the anguish and misfortune of others, like we are just some kind of sadistic marionette who use women as play things. Now I know some of you have had experiences that have made you shy away from men due to betrayed trust, but please realize, we're not all dogs. x.X Some of us are actually nice people. I promise. ._.;

I'm pretty sure that's clear (that men aren't dogs). I read Alunissage's point (and she may disagree) as saying that we can argue that rape is wrong, but there is little inside comprehension of it for us, for men. At best, it is a fear for loved ones, not a fear for oneself. (I don't want to downplay that... as long as it's a fear for loved ones because of who they are, and not what it does to your honor or anything silly like that.) We can argue about it because it's Wrong... schematically. Theoretically. It's a barrier I ran up against in my thesis, and I found out I had nothing intellectually meaningful to say, partly because we don't have firsthand experience of what rape, and the fear of rape, does.

And so we have men that actually rape, for whatever reason, out of intention or hated ignorance... and then people who turn a blind eye to it, either because they were trained to, because they can afford to, whatever. That Won't Happen to Me. I See the Signals. Don't Go Down Dark Alleys, and You Won't Get Mugged/Raped/Whatever. I Am Aware. And then you get mugged on the open street. You said you wouldn't give your wallet, but that foolish bravado melted away at knifepoint, at gunpoint, whatever. Oh, you didn't see the gun? Well, the threat was enough, you're not a gambling man. And if you did pull a gun, how would that have ended? That may not happen, but the possibility is there, whether you believe it or not.

How can we think a rape situation can be so clearcut, when a mugging can already have so many variables?

And so... no, we're not all dogs. But I know there are times when I've humored dogs, because I'd rather get along with someone for the five minutes I have to be by them rather than cause an uproar. I'm sure my silence made an impression. And I could afford to. The costs of rape are not nothing for me... but they are less. That is a good reminder to have. Lots of people, both men and women, are dog trainers, but I think, in this situation, there's less conflict for us to do it.

Thank you Meg, Julie, Alunissage, anyone I've forgotten, for your appeals. And God save you and others.

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

GPG, women are plenty capable of turning men into untrusting and guarded individuals, too.

[exigence]

All of you guys are making excuses, what's worse is their based off of all the nonsense in the media.

And what are YOU basing it off of? A poor education of the psychology behind this? Off a biased opinion that the mentally reduced deserve whatever it is that they did? Show me your credentials, your research, your scientific studies and your educational experience. Don't stop there, how about you also share your personal experiences with the mentally reduced as well?

The only things I'm basing my thoughts off of are the things I'm sure are true, Ive tried to ignore any details because I dont trust the media all to well. Mostly I can be sure that: she killed herself and that the neighbor provoked this by creating a false identity, im a little skeptical about her mental state i havent heard anything about the severity of her condition. I'm not claiming any of this to be based of fact. in fact if you look at my first post i said these were just my opinions based off of my moral beliefs.

institutionalization is not a punishment, it's a treatment.

Law Dictionary: Penal Institution
Any place of confinement for convicted criminals. See 230 N.E. 2d 536, 541. Penal institutions include local and county jails and workhouses, reformatories, penitentiaries, prison camps and farms, as well as the modern correctional institution (new nomenclature used to describe many penal institutions previously called "prisons"). See jail.

[Alunissage]

*boggles*

Mental institution, not penal institution.

[exigence]

kizyr didn't specify what kind of institution, so i picked the one that best demonstrated my point, i exaggerated a little bit. but in all seriousness institutions are punishments i have no clue where KF got the impression that they're not or that they are even capable of helping people. All they can do is to help you to help your self, if a patient is set in his/her ways there is noting a Dr. can do, other than keep them druged up.

[Kizyr]

AND KIZYR, before i forget, I know that most rapes are from people you know but what would you have me say "Ya know your friends of the opposite sex? Well always be uneasy and watchful of their behavior or you may get raped."?

You're assuming that "people you know" refers to "friends". Not necessarily. I mean, how many people do you know that you wouldn't consider your friends?

I don't think there are any stats on this... but I'd wager that most rapes would involve someone the victim knows, maybe considers an acquaintance or "friend of a friend", but wouldn't consider a close friend.

On that same note, it's good to at least be able to trust your friends. But, it's not always easy to tell what's "trustworthy". Meg's done a far better job explaining the point that people don't really send clear "I'M A RAPIST" signals--they're just as likely to come off as benign.

but in all seriousness institutions are punishments i have no clue where KF got the impression that they're not or that they are even capable of helping people. All they can do is to help you to help your self, if a patient is set in his/her ways there is noting a Dr. can do, other than keep them druged up.

Mental institution is not the same as a penal institution (furthermore, someone sent to a mental institution is not a convicted criminal; so, your definition is not the correct one). Please, learn to use context. In English, context is supposed to be used to understand any sentence. After all, I don't have to specify that the word "English" refers to the language and not the people, right? When I say "right", do I have to explain to you if I mean right as in "correct", or right as in the opposite of "left"?
[EDIT: It also occurs to me that you even got this much wrong. "Institutionalization" refers specifically to placing someone in a mental institution. Placing someone in a prison / correctional facility / penal institution is referred to as "incarceration".]

I'm seriously trying to help you out here, because you're having a large amount of difficulty comprehending or articulating even simple arguments in English. You've indicated at least that English is your first language. So, there's really no excuse. If English is not your first language, then ask me for clarification if there's something you don't understand, and I'll try to re-explain it.

Now, regarding your argument. Your last sentence only demonstrates that you have absolutely no knowledge of how mental health care operates. Therapy and drugs are part of treatments that aim at curing or alleviating the symptoms of mental illnesses, the same way that physical illnesses are treated through drugs, surgery, rehabilitation, and other methods. Mental institutions are not places people are sent to be locked away for life, but places people are sent to receive treatment. If treatment is impossible, then the mental institution tries to make sure the person is not a danger to himself or to others.

Listen, all of this is a subject I've known about and dealt with my entire life. I come from a family of physicians, including several psychiatrists, and several people who have worked for and with mental institutions. Although I'm not a physician myself, my work deals with the healthcare field. I have to understand how hospitals, mental institutions, sheltered workshops, and other places operate in order to inform what I do at work.

In other words, it's very safe to say that I have a much greater degree of familiarity with the subject than you do. Please, do yourself a favor and re-read my arguments. If there is anything in particular you don't understand, try to understand it first or ask me for clarification. Once you do understand it, if you disagree with it, then try to construct a decent argument. KF

[Jenner]

Rapists are usually distant family, some are strangers, most rapists use this connection to start to pursue a relationship and developing trust between them and their future victims. This practice is known as "grooming" once grooming is complete the predator can begin to victimize their prey with reduced fear of having authorities keyed in as the victim is torn between mixed loyalties. During the process, the perpetrator will reinforce the belief in the victim that this is somehow their fault, that they are just as guilty as the rapist, and that they are sluts/whores/etc. Believe me when I say I know more about this process then way too many other innocent people should know.

. . . do you have any idea what being in constant fear of something does to a person? fear is good for people in small doses. "i am not leaning on that railing, we are fifty stories up and it looks wobbly." "i am not doing that ridiculous bike stunt just to impress my friends; i have never done it before and will break something."

she may not be speaking for all women, BG, but she speaks for me. i live on a ground floor apartment in a bad neighborhood. the first thing my mom said when she saw the place was "oh no, meg, my cousin was raped in a ground floor apartment." thanks mom. we already signed the lease. that's exactly what i want in my head for the next year.

i lived the first three months here in fear. i didn't know the area. i didn't know the people. i heard gunshots at night. upstairs there were strange crashes--which i would learn later was my neighbor being beaten by her abusive ex-boyfriend--and because i work from home as a freelance artist, i have to be here all the time. we have these huge windows, and i'm not allowed to open the blinds because if my husband comes home and sees them open, he panics, because it means that anyone can look inside and know that i am there, and i am all alone.

we have two bolt locks on the door, but so what? there's no security system that will go off if someone smashes through a window. i know, because my neighbor's ex smashed her windows one night.

being afraid all the time is no way to live. i finally had a breakdown because my fear was infecting everything--i could not function. i made myself leave the apartment and explore the area. i made myself buy lunch at a local restaurant.

now i know the area. and, thanks to my upstairs neighbor screaming, and me and another neighbor running to her aid, i also know some people. it is not reassuring. this is a bad place to live, and as soon as we can afford to, we're leaving it. but you know, it wasn't this place that taught me to be afraid of men. it was my childhood friend whose father raped her as a little girl. it was the the men who stalked me as a grocery store cashier. it was the taxi cab driver that got angry with me when i ran from his "romantic gestures"--i hope i don't need to express how scary it is to receive such attention from someone you're trapped in a car with--and that's just a few examples.

i'm curious, BG--what are these mystical rapist clues we should be picking up? i'd love to stop being afraid of every loitering group of men i pass on the street. and since you seem to know exactly how to spot them, you should let us know here, because it's not exactly part of standard school curriculum. most of us have to learn the hard way. and you know, learning the way--there's usually some trauma clouding the thinking we need to do afterwards.

There is an old adage I read on the tubes, it goes something like this: "Men are afraid women will laugh at them. Women are afraid men will kill them."
This is a very legitimate quote to apply to this conversation. I could go on a tangent about the sexual brainwashing oppression that women are culturally put through (ironicly now, even by other women who become teachers and are using the same methods that have been ingrained on them perpetuating a cycle of victim victimization without realizing the effect it is having on their offspring.) on all parts of the globe to insure that we are insecure and vulnerable, but that would derail this entire thread and have cries of "conspiracy!" and "where are you getting this -Dung Beetle- from" all over the place. No boys, you can't see it, but the same thing is done to you to encourage you to be competitive, aggressive, and domineering. "Manly" even. This social engineering is now rooted in our culture, making white men king and everything else... just there, and white men are just as trapped, the good ones realize it, and feel guilty, but they are still trapped in those inexhaustible turbines of habit and prominence.

ANYWAY, my point is. Women have a reason to feel that killing ourselves, while not wholly right, and not wholly unselfish, has it's negatives, but is excusable, where as men have been taught that crap like that is for sissies who can't man it up. It's no wonder there is such a gender divide on this subject.

...But I don't really wanna read this thread anymore... it's reminding me of Coley.

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

Can someone explain the Coley thing? Like with a link or something if nobody feels like actually typing up what went on.

[phyco126]

All of you guys are making excuses, what's worse is their based off of all the nonsense in the media.

And what are YOU basing it off of? A poor education of the psychology behind this? Off a biased opinion that the mentally reduced deserve whatever it is that they did? Show me your credentials, your research, your scientific studies and your educational experience. Don't stop there, how about you also share your personal experiences with the mentally reduced as well?

The only things I'm basing my thoughts off of are the things I'm sure are true, Ive tried to ignore any details because I dont trust the media all to well. Mostly I can be sure that: she killed herself and that the neighbor provoked this by creating a false identity, im a little skeptical about her mental state i havent heard anything about the severity of her condition. I'm not claiming any of this to be based of fact. in fact if you look at my first post i said these were just my opinions based off of my moral beliefs.

If you believe that the girl who killed herself deserved it, then your moral beliefs are based on what? That is not even a moral thought to have, in my opinion.

Now, you said that you are basing this off your moral opinion solely and not on any facts. We provide facts, links, experience, and truth to the subject. Yet you are condeming us for being wrong in our knowledge and that you are right on yours, based on your moral opinion?

[meg]

Can someone explain the Coley thing? Like with a link or something if nobody feels like actually typing up what went on.

i've sent you a pm, BG.

phyco, people do things based on their moral opinions all the time. we even encourage it, if our preference for the comfort of pharmacists over the welfare of women needing birth control is any indication.

[CatsWithMatches]

we even encourage it, if our preference for the comfort of pharmacists over the welfare of women needing birth control is any indication.

I know the story you're referring to. That darn near made my head explode.

[phyco126]

Not quite sure what you mean about the story of the pharmacist. Unless you mean the pharmacist who refused to give a girl birth control due to the pharmacist's belief.

However, I was mearly refering to Exigence's telling us that we are basing this on our wrong opinions, and that he is right, even though what we say is fact and he stats his is soley his opinion.

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

Not quite sure what you mean about the story of the pharmacist. Unless you mean the pharmacist who refused to give a girl birth control due to the pharmacist's belief.

However, I was mearly refering to Exigence's telling us that we are basing this on our wrong opinions, and that he is right, even though what we say is fact and he stats his is soley his opinion.

This happened to my best friend's girlfriend just a few days ago! They transferred the prescription to another local place. I would have just went in there ranting and made him lose his job for inconveniencing me with his beliefs.

[Alunissage]

I know what you're saying, but phrasing it as "inconveniencing me" => "make him lose his job" makes it sound like every other instance of spoiled entitlement we hear about, like throwing a tantrum because you had to wait for a table at a restaurant.

I'm kind of ambivalent on this in the abstract. On the one hand, it seems like a profession that people with certain beliefs should not be in if they have to choose between their beliefs and their job responsibilities (and JWL, who used to post here, has mentioned that he decided not to complete his training and become a pharmacist for that reason, which I totally respect). On the other, it seems like changing professions is a high price to pay for a job in which the potential conflict will be a relatively small portion of the full job (although that depends on where the line is drawn, I suppose), when the option to simply refer the patient to another pharmacist who can fill the order exists. There are OB-GYNs who do not perform abortions and doctors who do not prescribe certain medications (I'm not referring specifically to birth control here), and in theory it should be simple enough, as well as understandable, to just refer the patient to another doctor, pharmacist, etc. who is willing to provide the requested service.

In practice, of course, there may be few or no alternative options -- having always lived in big cities I have to remind myself of this -- and there is no shortage of professionals who most unprofessionally take the opportunity to deliver moral lectures and even misinform their patients -- or victims -- as to alternatives. Also, I would be very surprised if the pharmacists who accompany their refusal to fill certain prescriptions for women with slut-shaming diatribes also refuse to sell condoms or Viagra and the like to men. (Health insurance companies will often cover impotence treatments but not birth control; figure that one out.)