God?

General talk. News, religion, politics, your daily life, whatever, it goes here. Just keep it clean.

Do you believe in God?

Yes
20
65%
No
5
16%
Sometimes
6
19%
 
Total votes: 31

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Coley Lou
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Post by Coley Lou »

Well, if anyone has read Hitchhiker's Guide to the Galaxy, we could just say that mice created us as part of a living super computer that would give the RIGHT answer to "Life, the universe and everything." Not 42, that was their first try ;P

So anyway. I work with a bunch of overzealous Christians, unfortunately. However I know most people aren't like this, but this was one of the worst experiences I've ever had and I just could not wrap my head around it.

I had a lady tell me I was a whore and going to hell for being a nude art model. And that calling it art was just a justification for pornography. (And I don't have a problem with porn, but I see a distinct difference between porn and art nudity.)

I was just so shocked, I tried so hard to explain how the students needed to have a base to start from. You don't start out drawing landscapes, you start by drawing shapes. You don't draw portraits until you understand how the human body is formed. I've modeled for classes where students were uncomfertable drawing a nude model, so I wore a bra and underwear, because clothing is a distraction, they spent way too much time trying to draw the creases in my slacks, etc. Which wasn't what the teacher was trying to teach.

At any rate, she freaked out at me, and I just clocked out bawling and went home, I almost quit, I was so upset. The only other time I had something like this happen to me was on the old AOL ACO board with Nicki. I still have no idea what her problem was, but she also told me I was a whore for doing that.

I am totaly cool if you don't see it the way I see it, but to treat someone like that, is not Christian in my eyes. I don't think God would aprove of that. I see that as thinking you are better then other people, and that isn't what I consider being a good Christian. Besides look at all the nudity in church art....

Was Michelangelo going to hell for painting the Sistine Chapel?

Anyway, i wish WD would join in on this because I love the Mormon standpoint on going to hell. And I hope someone will correct me if I understood this wrong. But it was my understanding that they believe in three layers of heaven, the top for the best mormons, the middle for the rest of the good mormons, and the third for everyone else which is apparently supposed to be like earth is now. And that the only way you could go to hell is if you knew for positive fact that the mormon religion was the one and only one, and chose not to believe in it and convinced other people not to. (Please correct me if I'm wrong, I don't want to go around spouting off false information) But I found this very interesting.

I always told Eric I hoped the afterlife would be like it is here now, because as depressed and suicidal as I get, I like Earth, and I like life, and I like what I do, and I like the fact that I can achive goals, etc.

Something else I wanted to mention, I have an extreme loyalty to people. I see it as my duty to make other people happy no matter how much pain it causes me. I know that sounds kind of weird, but that'd be the closest I come to spirtuality. I'm not selfless, but I try very hard to please everyone else most of the time to no avail. But it's what I do, and what I want to continue doing. My health is horrible though and with this disease it makes all of that very hard, and that makes me sad and depressed. And yes, I sometimes wonder if I have this because of my lack of faith. Although if science is right, that wouldn't be possible as I would've been born with it.

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Post by drumlord »

Just a quick reply to the questions about why hell would exist. This reply of course flies in the face of Christianity, but bear with me. For one, the actual concept of hell has changed tremendously. IIRC, hell is really supposed to be eternity without God, not what Dante, Hollywood, and the priests who used to live off of the fear and money of the peasants.

Anyway, I have strong arguments against the concept of eternal punishment by God or any other powerful being or force out there. It just doesn't jive with common sense. God is not a schoolhouse bully who waits after recess to beat people up he doesn't like. Plus, as mentioned previously in this thread, the only way to go to Heaven is to accept Jesus, right? That's why Christianity is a missionary faith. But here's the problem. You might argue "Well, what about somebody who lives and dies in an African tribe and never even hears the word Jesus uttered by anybody?" And the usual Christian response is that Christianity is very easy to find anywhere on the globe. Whether or not that statement is true, the follow-up you come to after that is what about when Jesus died for our sins? There wasn't a buffer period where you went to Heaven by default. The Christian church did not magically appear across the globe. So hundreds of thousands of people, if not millions, really didn't ever hear about this Christ person and had absolutely no chance of going to Heaven. That's not a distortion of the Christian faith or trying to argue some kind of hypocrasy or something. That's just literally how it works. Ask any Priest/minister/etc. if you need to accept Jesus as your savior to go to heaven and he will say yes.

That isn't an argument by me against the Christian faith though, by any means. G1 and I have had that very discussion before. It's finding things like that that doesn't make you say "Alright, I'm an athiest now" but rather makes you try to work things out in your mind. I think, and I suppose I could be wrong, that it is safe to say that God wouldn't send somebody to hell who literally had absolutely no chance (a snowball's chance in hell, as it were) of being saved. I mean, that wouldn't be too loving would it? Imagine getting a phone call from somebody you didn't know saying if you had only come to their house you would have won a million dollars.

I tend to have a more liberal interpretation of things like that. Remember, for those of you question, don't listen to what some old fogies might tell you. Just because there are a lot of cookie cutter interpretations of the facts out there doesn't mean you can't pick and choose. It's your faith and quite possibly the most personal thing you can ever have. And you have the right to keep that faith to yourself as well. I never feel more persecuted than when trying to explain something relatively simple about my faith to somebody who doesn't believe a word I'm saying. Screw em, I say. Jesus accepted everybody, so how come his followers can't? ;)
-Rich-

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Kizyr
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Post by Kizyr »

NallOne wrote:
Kizyr wrote:Bah, I've been told I'm going to hell dozens of times. Hasn't changed my faith one bit.


Eh. I've been told by thousands, as well as on my Television, and by my President. :| You can only take so much before you just toss your hands up in defeat.


You say that almost as if you think I don't deal with the same, or worse in many cases.

Anyway, I'm out of the conversation now. It's turned more to an analysis of Christianity in particular, and I don't think there's anything about it I know that, say, G1 and Eric don't know already. KF
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Post by GhaleonOne »

Jesus accepted everybody, so how come his followers can't? Wink


I wish more people would think about that statement. It's pretty truthful.

BTW, Rich, you did bring up a good point, in that how can someone who's never even heard about salvation by grace, Christ's crucifixion, death, and resurrection, etc. can be sent to hell. This is my personal belief, though I have a feeling I'm in the minority among other Christians. I don't believe someone is sent to hell just because they didn't understand or were never given a chance to understand. One of my religion professors a year ago explained it to me, and I've agreed with it ever since, that the entirety of humanity is already saved, in that what Christ's life was, was a sin punishment for all of humanity, whether you believe it or not. Only when someone outright rejects the offer of salvation they've been given, would that salvation be rejected. This also brings up the issue of "What if someone has a hard time in believing in God?". See, that's where personally, I just don't know. But I don't feel most of the world is going to hell just because they were told they had to pray some specific prayer to be "saved". To me, a lot of that talk is just a misunderstanding of Christianity entirely. Anyways, this is a much different viewpoint than most Christians would believe, but personally, I think it makes more sense, and from what we had discussed in the class, I feel it also jives quite finely with Biblical text on salvation (specifically Romans).

And then on issues of the Bible itself. Someone above this post mentioned something about scripture being mended to fit views of that generation. I think that's totally true, and unfortunately. People never seem to understand the point of the specific books in the Bible. Some will take, say, a passage in one of Paul's writings that says women can't be leaders in the church. Well, okay, but what they don't bother to uncover, is that he was also writing that letter to a specific church, at a specific point in history. And had they checked that, they would have found there was a large problem with women in that particular area, the society itself was against women having any major role in society, and many were stoned for it. He wrote that, not because he felt all women should be barefoot and pregnant housewives, but for a specific reason that was addressed to a specific concern of that society. The same can be said for a LOT of issues in the Bible that people take totally out of context. That's modern society for you. Everything has to fit into modern viewpoints. "Oh, hey, Paul wrote women can't be preachers, therefor he must have meant that for EVERYONE for ALL TIMES".

Sorry, went on a tangent, but it's still a valid point worth thinking about. And actually, that kinda jives with my opinions on suicide too. The majority of Christianity will say that suicide leads to hell. I don't buy into that either. What about someone born with a pyschological problem that leads many to suicide, such as being bipolar? Or what about someone who was born into a society that treats them so harshly that they can't bear it anymore, and eventually ends up killing themselves? I don't feel God would send someone to hell over that. Not in the slightest. Personally, I would imagine God is hurt deeply when he sees that person hurting, and weeps with them. Oh, and don't get me wrong, that's not an open invitation to go kill yourself to get into heaven. Suicide is a cheap way of ending pain, rather than taking responsibility for your life. But it does happen, and I don't feel it's a one way ticket to hell.

That was more than I planned on writing, and I didn't even touch half of the stuff I wanted to reply to. But if I keep writing more posts, I doubt anyone will want to read through the novels. :P
-G1

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GhaleonOne
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Post by GhaleonOne »

Anyway, I'm out of the conversation now. It's turned more to an analysis of Christianity in particular, and I don't think there's anything about it I know that, say, G1 and Eric don't know already. KF


Actually, Coley mentioned up there wanting to get George's (Wd rpg wd) thoughts on heaven and hell to see the Mormon side of things. I've never really studied much on the afterlife of other religions, so if you get some time, I wouldn't mind hearing the Muslim thoughts on heaven and hell as well. Or Jehovah's Witnesses viewpoints from Alunissage.
-G1

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Post by Coley Lou »

For Kizzie, I really agree with Mickey. I'd love to hear other view points. I've never taken any religious courses, but I do learn from my friends, and I am always curious what people believe and why. I'd like to hear from you! I think the reason we're getting more into Christianity, not even Catholisism, which has it's own interesting notions, is because it's just more out there. We come into contact with that too much. Most of us were never given the opportunity to be raised in an environment where we were free to chose. Actually my mother discouraged me from going to church, saying "The Bible was written by the white man!" to which I say "Mom, you're not black, you can't say that." Um end tangent...

Mickey you are very generous and you actually in some way have the optomistic side of my religious opinion. Basicly what tears me up so terribly and what ultimately made me desicion to back away was that I could not possibly accept the notion that I would go to heaven and see all the people I loved go to hell. My mom isn't saved, so she would go, Eric is gay, so he wouldn't go, I have premarital sex, so I'm not going either. But I used to be VERY religious. And I think that was the tie breaker. I knew that I would never be happy in an afterlife knowing the people i cared about the most were suffering for eternity for things I don't think deserve eternal punishment. So unless we get our minds erased when we enter heaven, I just couldn't handle that. I'd be happier in hell. I might not be able to be with them, as in that'd be punishment, but it'd have been punishment in Heaven as well.

And I think there are very few crimes that are so heinous that they'd deserve eternal punishment. In my eyes, if you get into the afterlife and have to pay prices for desicions made here, it should be like a jail sentance. You get out eventually. It's hard to put into perspective the idea that Eric would go to hell for being homosexual just the same as Hitler probalby went to hell for killing millions of people.

I do like the discusions we're having here, I rarely express my views because I've been treated so badly for them. I appreciate everyone. And I'd like to hear more unique perspectives.

-Nicole

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Post by Chris »

I believe in god sometimes. Eh.

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Post by Scorpioeyez »

Coley Lou wrote:Umm btw everyone I do believe that Scorp was making a joke about the get out of hell free card. I'd like one!


Get Out Of Hell Free Cards hehe
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Post by MiaOne »

GhaleonOne wrote:I think that's a pretty niave thing to say... Some people that follow Christianity might be disrespectful to nature, but how is Christianity as a religion disrespectful to nature? I so no real substance to your claim there. Just because a church tore down some trees? I take quite a bit of offense to your comment, as I love nature, otherwise I wouldn't love to go hiking in the mountains as often as possible, and yet I'm a Christian.


I wasn't making a personal shot at anyone, so don't make it that way. Some of the best and most nature loving people in the world are Christians. But, in my experiance it wasn't because of the church that this was the case...more personal reflection. I was talking about the organization, not the people in it.

I probably should of just merely said that particular church, but I was angry at the time and I guess the church I would like to belong to would be one who would take offense to that just as much as you took offense to my comment. And because I once considered myself a Christian it was more a personal venting...because I was always laughed at and never taken seriously at my retreats when I would discuss nature. Sorry...I don't mean YOUR church or Christianity periodI just learned by example and came to think that. I know you're a very nature-oriented person. I'm sorry.

And Kiz, I was "seething" because that was a disrespectful and rather snide commented sign to put up...if they had just said "future expansion" etc, etc...yeah I would of still been angry (like I am with any new Wal-Mart being put up in a 10 mile block radius) but I wouldn't have been so offended by the baltent disregaurd. (They barely fill up their old parking lot as it is.) And as for new housing...yes, sad for the loss of trees and such, but I am also relistic, our population is enormous and growing...I can see the nessecity in that.
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Post by WD RPG WD »

This is why they say never talk about religion or politics with friends. Too many things you can say to cause conflict no matter how harmless your intentions..

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Post by Darkgeohound »

I am an atheist. I used to be a pentacostal, though. When i was there they taught that life should be lived for god. I did not like the idea of doing that. Then when i stopped and though about it, when i prayed i did not really mean what i said, i was just mouthing prayers with no meaning. I guess i was never actuall a christian. Oh well.
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Post by PrettyGirlJean »

I answered "sometimes". I've been in a couple discussions such as these due to my 'confused' state when it comes to religion. My mom is Pagan and for a while I read her books and even said one or two of the prayers in it... but it didn't last. Just as my christian/catholic prayers didn't last. I am really not sure what to believe. I usually say that I believe that there is some higher being, some higher intelligence and what not... but I'm not sure if I'm saying that because I truly believe that or if I'm just scared to not believe in something.

I do envy those who can so adamantly believe in their faith, or just know that they don't believe in anything. Religion has been something I've struggled with for many years now. There have been times when I think that I believe in God... but they don't seem to last. It's almost like a talent someone has... you'd like to have it, but no matter how hard you try you can't seem to master it like that person has. Religion has always been something that makes me feel small, that it's this huge thing I can't understand no matter how hard I try. There are times like now when I look for answers and hope to find them... but, I often don't.

It does comfort me that I'm not alone when it comes to being unsure and/or confused. Again, I don't know if its my way of making myself feel better or not, but what I do believe in is being the best person you can be. Try your best to be kind to the world even if it isn't kind to you. I guess that may seem silly or not make sense. I believe in that saying to treat others as you wish them to treat you. I try to be kind in even the smallest ways such as when I'm driving and I motion someone to go ahead of me, or for someone to cross the street, or holding the door for someone when entering or leaving a store. Of course, I'm not selfless, I think I'm pretty selfish actually. But I do try my best to be as nice and understanding to others as possible and I hope that in doing that I can be looked at as a good person. I'm afraid that I'm the kind of person that needs to see something to believe in it... and unfortunately for me from what I've been told, you just have to have faith.

I sometimes wonder if deep down I do believe... I'm not sure who mentioned it here, but someone said that if they're scared, then they must believe at least a little. Is that true? It's strange how things that I know are not real such as ghosts and other such things will scare me if I think too much of it... things that nightmares are made of can cause such a fright in me. I know they're not real, but how is it that such things can cause such a reaction in me yet the thought of God, who is good and pure can't? That does worry and sometimes frighten me too. Again, when I really think about it; I try not too often. It's kind of like out of the blue when I try to fall to sleep and I wonder if I will die in my sleep. What will happen? Nothing? Will I just cease to exist? That scares me. The thought of not being able to remember anything before I was born or later when I die. That thought of if no one remembers me do/did I really exist?

Anyhow, I'm getting off topic.... these are all things that I think about when it comes to religion. I worry that I will be facing death and still not know what to believe. It is pretty scary, at least for me, to wonder if the path I'm on is the right one.

Well then, I'll end this here, I'm sorry for going on about all this! I'd like to thank everyone who's participated in this thread so far. It is always interesting to read what others think. I also hope that I haven't offended anyone since that wasn't the intent of my post; I apologize if I have!

Take care everyone :)

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Post by Darkgeohound »

Katze wrote:Well..I was raised a Catholic, and I suppose that yes, I do believe in God, but sometimes I really struggle with my faith and I can't help but think "What if there really is no God? What if humans simply made up God so that we could feel secure?" Because after all, telling yourself that there is no God and that when you die, that's it, isn't really pleasant (well, in my opinion it's not).

Then again I'm only 16, I still have plenty of time to think about things, and supposedly it's natural for people my age to question their faith. =/


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Post by Ramza »

Darkgeo,

Clever (if unoriginal) summary of Katze's questions.

Of course, if man came first, then "god" is not at all what man claims god to be, since man claimed that, among other things, "God" by definition is first.

For Christians, ex-Christians, pseudo-Christians, and anyone with a Judeo-Christian worldview:

http://www.christianitytoday.com/bc/2005/003/27.40.html

Just a short article on the possibility that hell exists, but is not eternal, much more like purgatory for the whole world with a never-ending chance to plead for Christ's righteousness over your own.

it's called "Christocentric universalism." Just something to ponder if you're tired of thinking that religion is just a scare tactic to convince people to do good. Plenty of people do practice religion for just this reason, but it's an overall shallow understanding of religion (and anything spiritual/mystical), and EVERYONE here knows that. Let's get past that point and talk about something worthwhile, eh?

Beyond that, I am continually discouraged to see people misunderstood the message of Christianity as a rather bland/generic "be good." Even though you spend years upon years in these bible schools (if you were protestant anyway) that teach you the "Romans Road", the sin/salvation model, somehow people still turn it into "am I being good enough"?

Like when we say "well people are going to hell for being gay or having premarital sex." Completely inconsistent with the Christian worldview. Just nonsense...even Catholics (which are, in this regard, far removed from Protestants) would see the error in this way of thinking. Whether or not you do these "bad" things, the point is that no one lives a perfect life, and we are all in need of some redemption.

But rather than accept some form of grace or redemption, we instead find ourselves asking "well what will comfort me? what will make me feel better?" It's good and right to respect people, regardless of differences in belief, but that doesn't equate to "everyone believes what they believe and that's fine." I have no qualms admitting that if I think I'm right, I am more than happy to 1) persuade someone who is misled to believe what I believe or 2) hear what others have to say to refine my own beliefs where they may be false. It's no good to just be at a standstill.

I think that, if there is an afterlife, and it seems to me there should be (another post is required to elaborate on that for those who would disagree), then we ought to recognize that none of us deserve a "paradise" or a "reunion with God" until we make things right between us. Orthodox Christian teaching offers the solution in the form of Christ's sacrifice. Liberal Christianity focuses more on Jesus' life instead of his death, and sees his whole life as a paradigm for sacrifice to help others. But the theme is there regardless: sacrifice, redemption, grace.

If you go to a UU (unitarian universalist) congregation, which can include Christians, Jews, atheists, agnostics, Eastern mysticists, ANYONE -- you'll find that what ties them together is the common belief that we are in need of grace and redemption, and that takes sacrifice.

I may not be able to convince anyone that the Bible is historically accurate or factual (esp regarding the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ), but I think it's safe to say that people whining and blubbering about the difficulty of chosing religions or the hard-hearted and cold atheist who sees no point in any of this discussion need to put aside the crap and recognize the universal need for redemption.

If my terms are in any way confusing, tell me, and I'll make some definitions.

Ramza

PS - For those who object and say "what about the other religions", I say we talk about the other religions: what they teach, etc. Summarily, I think it's safe to say that most religions do turn into "be good", which is actually what many of you accuse Christianity of being.

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Post by Darkgeohound »

So, do you believe hell is eternal then? What about heaven, is it eternal as well? I don't mean to sound sarcastic if it does. I am curious. You seem to know quite a bit on religion.
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Post by drumlord »

Re: "Be good"

I don't think "accusing" the Christian religion of that is the right word. But you are right in that that isn't the entire point, nor is it exclusive to Christianity. Anybody who has taken theology courses (at least G1 and I) has heard of the "golden rule" (though it probably has other names), which is that pretty much every religion has in part "be a good person" as the path to salvation/enlightenment or at least as a general guideline to follow. After all, religions wouldn't be very popular if they said things like "Kick homeless people and spit in the faces of children every time you see them"

But if you are trying to get a discussion of other religions going, like Buddhism etc., it's probably too late for this thread. You'd be more likely to get a good discussion in a new thread.
-Rich-

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Post by Jenner »

GhaleonOne wrote:Yeah, if it ends up out of hand, I'll lock, but we've had good religious discussion in the past without going into flamewars before.


OMGz lolz j00 beleev in g0d? 0n1y n00bz beleev in godz lolz, ur l0zers! teh kewl ppl r athesits & kn0 bettr.

g0d iz a fary tail 4 litl kiddies lolz.



>.>
Sometimes, I have faith, lately moreso then not. But other times, it's hard to not question and wonder. I always believe, just in case. However, there's always that chance he/she/it doesn't exist too. It's safer, IMO, to assume God does exist and spend a ittle time believing and having faith then to swear God doesn't and go to hell if he does. It hurts nothing.

What pisses me off is people who spurn the true value of faith, religion, and fellowship. Who exploit the beliefs and word of their proclaimed faith to achieve personal goals and corrupt what its truly meant to be. Using religion as an excuse to do things that should never be done.

I also dislike being told what something means, I like to discover things for myself. I despise being told what to believe, what this and that is. I hate being fed what to think. I want to be a free-thinking person. But even if I studied it myself, the bible is a retranslated book that still had to have been fixed by someone who may or may not have known better. No one is perfect, to rely on it being done perfectly and meaning everything that it says is ludicrist. It's word of mouth. The books lessons and meanings are constantly argued by scholars and it's translations constantly changed to appeal to the senses of the time. Any other document that had been ripped apart and redone over a million times and put under this much scrunity shouldn't hold such definate credibility. Honestly, the damn book could mean anything else. Its oftentimes vague and counter-productive. Saying one thing then saying the other. It's always telling you what you should know rather then letting you decide for yourself. Feels like dirty brainwashing to me. :/ I like open-minded discovery, not "hard proof" that's just retranslated sexist -Dung Beetle-.

Come to think of it, have little respect for organized religion, or religion as a whole. Any faith that follows a loving and forgiving deity yet has followers whom force their beliefs on other people who may or may not believe and agree with it doesn't deserve any appriciation.

The whole "No Homosexual Marriage" thing sickens me and pisses me off to levels of fury I shouldn't see. The hypocrisy and ignorance of it is sickening. The hate and intolerance is disgusting, this is not the way of a just, accepting, and loving God.
And I don't want to hear the -Dung Beetle- excuses as to why it's okay.
It's NOT.
It's never okay to oppress and deny someone rights and privledges that other people have based on their beliefs and differences.
It's never justified to deny a group of innocent well-meaning people happiness and equality.

Regardless, I believe the way I want to as lazily and unfanatically as I can; it still makes me feel dirty--yet right at the same time.
Last edited by Jenner on Wed Jul 20, 2005 2:09 am, edited 4 times in total.
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Post by Ramza »

I will reply to others later, I am feeling wildly ill tonight. Just quickly (since it involves no research, just personal opinion), I'll answer Darkgeo's question:

So, do you believe hell is eternal then? What about heaven, is it eternal as well? I don't mean to sound sarcastic if it does. I am curious. You seem to know quite a bit on religion.


I guess that means you read the article. My current beliefs are similar to the author's; heaven is definitely eternal. Hell, by the sounds of the Bible (and countless Christians from there on out) seems to be eternal: but there is good reason to believe that perhaps hell (defined as "separation from God") will not be eternal for anyone, but rather be nothing more than what Catholics traditionally see as "purgatory"; a place of refinement, where one accepts the need for divine grace.

Given that I (after years of struggle and doubt) accept and believe nearly all Orthodox Christian teaching, I certainly do worry about the vast majority of the world that is too preoccupied with other matters to see the need for redemption/reconciliation with others (especially one's Creator). As a result, I hope that it is the case that all will eventually go to heaven, as they are all given the opportunity.

This, of course, flies in the face of such oft-quoted bible verses as "choose this day whom you will serve" and extended passages describing the people who are kept out of heaven (the liars, thieves, those who practice magic arts, etc). Of course, that list makes little sense, for the bible describes us all as such people. Its meaning as a list is actually quite useless when considering the typical model for salvation presented by Paul. The larger question is, then: must people play a guessing game while on earth? Or will people have a chance to fully know the truth and THEN make a decision?

Indeed, all this talk of a "kind/loving God" goes hand in hand with this universalist idea: that God will give everyone an infinite opportunity to accept his gift of grace.

This has all sorts of implications for Christianity; I cannot say that this "Christocentric universalism" is true as undoubtedly as I can that "Jesus Christ died and rose again to pay for the price of mankind's sins" is true. As a result, I do hope to be a missionary, "spreading the Gospel" so to speak to those who have not had a real chance to study and consider it.

Okay, so I'm going to make one more quick reply because the level of boldness spoken startles me (i.e. - don't speak so boldly unless you know you can back it up).

It's never okay to oppress and deny someone rights and privledges that other people have based on their beliefs and differences.


http://www.nambla.org/ - it's a real organization. Should they be granted their "constitutional right" to woo and seduce young boys who, after such wooing, "consent" to sexual relations? If you have the balls to say yes, you can ALMOST stand by that statement.

If you can say yes, please go on to tell me what a government is to do when the "rights" of one group (self-determined) clash with the "rights" of another group (again, self-determined). Your statement makes no concession for this situation, yet it happens again and again: these are the modern-day controversies of our time (Schiavo "right to live" vs "right to die", abortion, etcetc). Don't tell me you are so blind to believe that "anything goes" is the correct answer. If it does, a religious fanatic ought to murder you on the grounds that they believe you must die for your beliefs in advanced pluralism, and you'd have nothing to say in reply.

If you're going to respond to ALL of this with "what harm does it do SOMEONE ELSE for homosexuals to marry?", then you should keep the corollary with your "never okay to oppress/deny rights/privileges" that this only applies given one's self-proclaimed rights/privileges to not harm others in any way.

You have no idea how wrong you are for accusing me of being hateful/intolerant toward homosexuals because I don't believe they should have a right to "marry" in the traditional sense of the word.

I've begun my -Dung Beetle- excuse as to why it's okay. Sorry you had to hear it, it's just that I'm rather tired of the neo-moralistic one-sided garbage that tends to spew out of certain people's mouths today. Furthermore, I suspect I am much less ignorant of the homosexual marriage debate than you are, though I can't say that as a fact until we "match wits" so to speak. If this turns out to be the case, however, I will ask that you please retract your very narrow-minded statement regarding the "hypocrisy and ignorance" of those who might oppose homosexual marriage on legal grounds.

Ramza

drumlord
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Post by drumlord »

http://www.nambla.org/ - it's a real organization. Should they be granted their "constitutional right" to woo and seduce young boys who, after such wooing, "consent" to sexual relations? If you have the balls to say yes, you can ALMOST stand by that statement.

If you can say yes, please go on to tell me what a government is to do when the "rights" of one group (self-determined) clash with the "rights" of another group (again, self-determined). Your statement makes no concession for this situation, yet it happens again and again: these are the modern-day controversies of our time (Schiavo "right to live" vs "right to die", abortion, etcetc). Don't tell me you are so blind to believe that "anything goes" is the correct answer. If it does, a religious fanatic ought to murder you on the grounds that they believe you must die for your beliefs in advanced pluralism, and you'd have nothing to say in reply.


"I may disagree with what you have to say, but I shall defend, to the death, your right to say it. "

You are merging/confusing different issues here. Nambla most definitely has the right to believe whatever they want. There should be no legal way to stop them from thinking what they choose to think. However, you are asking whether or not we allow them to have sex with boys? That argument is irrelevant because your freedom to think and say what you want stops the precise moment when another person's rights are infringed upon (or, for that matter, any other laws are broken). There are people who believe in honor killings in the US too and they have the right to think honor killings are ok, but not to actually do them. This seems just fine to me.

I realize you were trying to use nambla to further your argument against homosexual marriage, but while the government is constantly tracking down nambla rings that molest children, it's a rare case that they track down homosexuals and jail them for trying to marry.
-Rich-

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Post by Jenner »

Responding in Parts:

Ramza wrote:however, I will ask that you please retract your very narrow-minded statement regarding the "hypocrisy and ignorance" of those who might oppose homosexual marriage on legal grounds.


What "Legal" grounds do you have for opposing homosexual marriage, Ramza? There is nothing criminal about homosexuality. There are already laws in effect that deal with sex offenders from rape to child molestation, to corruption of a minor and everything in-between.

Ramza wrote:http://www.nambla.org/ - it's a real organization. Should they be granted their "constitutional right" to woo and seduce young boys who, after such wooing, "consent" to sexual relations?


Constitutional right? There is nothing in the constitution that gives people the right to seduce minors. In fact, as mentioned before, there are laws against child molestation and statuary rape for these things. I hope for your sake that you're not comparing homosexuals with child molesters because that's pretty offensive. The constitution does not and never has given one the right to have sex with children. NAMBLA has no constitutional right to do that it claims it does. However, it has the right to have the organization and meetings and express the beliefs thanks to Freedom of Speech and Assembly.

LEGAL Grounds, Ramza? Really?!
Um, you are aware that America doesn't have an established Religion right? That the ability to practice any religion, or even not have a religion at all, is protected? It's because, "Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech..." What this means that no laws should legally be passed that expressly promote the beliefs and ideals of one religion over another. Corrupting a child is a criminal act, but there is nothing criminal about consensual love between two mature adults of the same gender. Because there is no withstanding legal issue against homosexuality, current anti-sodomy and anti-gay laws are legislation with a preference for a religious agenda; enforcing particular religious beliefs and behaviors on a public that may not believe in them. Using this example, one can come to the conclusion that the anti-gay laws in act today (and future bans on homosexuality) are a violation of the first amendment’s right to freedom of religion and expression and are a breach of a homosexual’s constitutional rights. And, so far, the Constitution has never been amended to deny rights to a group of individuals.

What logical, legal, argument could you have for banning Homosexual Marriage? I'm not talking a moral argument; I'm talking a rational legal point.

Show me where in the Declaration of Independence, or in the Constitution, it says that those who are different then us should have their natural rights banned and ignored because we don't agree with their choices.

Same-sex couples, as American citizens, legally have equal rights to marriage. Why aren't they getting them?

OMG IT'S SO TOLERANT IT BURNS.
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