Jenner's Guide to "Getting" Girls.

[Nobiyuki77]

When it comes to changing one's looks, I can lean either way. Tattoos are fine, piercings are fine, dying your hair any color to impress someone or to hide your natural colors (or grey hair) is iffy at best, but make-up for me is just, pfft. Women should never have to wear make-up, nor should they ever feel the need. Once in a while is fine, but I honestly like the natural look better.

However, that is merely my opinion and anymore it is fine and dandy if women want to wear it. Mostly because I got tired of thinking it was good of me to like the natural look and defend the whole 'no need for make-up bit' only to be attacked as a male pig. Odd. Anyway, yeah.

You're not alone. This has happened to me as well. Women don't make any sense to me. :/

[meg]

However, that is merely my opinion and anymore it is fine and dandy if women want to wear it. Mostly because I got tired of thinking it was good of me to like the natural look and defend the whole 'no need for make-up bit' only to be attacked as a male pig. Odd. Anyway, yeah.

most women feel they HAVE to wear make-up. it's been ingrained into them by their mothers, their sisters and aunts, their televisions, their magazines, their movies, their books. it's an instant confidence boost, exercising control over your physical appearance. my mother is of the age where she no longer feels the need to wear it, but she puts it on whenever she needs to feel braver--my stepdad calls it her warpaint.

when you tell a girl you don't like it, you're telling them you don't like THEM for something they've been trained to be--at least, that's what it sounds like they're taking it as. if you REALLY want to encourage a girl not to wear it, wait until you're dating her, and when you see her some morning before she's put it on, tell her how pretty she looks without it. otherwise, don't bring it up. because there's literally no point in saying it.

also, i've heard this sentiment from other boys (like my brother) before--and they have no idea what they're talking about. my experience is that unless a woman is wearing unusual colors, most of you guys do not notice. i pointed out to my brother that i wear make up (and he's seen me without it more than anyone else on earth), and he was shocked.

i have terrible skin. i got acne as soon as puberty started, and it never left. i am 25 years old. it is never going to leave, and i can't afford a dermatologist. however, after 13 years of experimentation, i've finally figured out how to care for and hide it, and most people don't realize there's anything wrong with my skin.

[Nobiyuki77]

The long and the short of it is this. When it comes to love, dating, relationships etc., women do not operate on my wavelength in terms of logic. This is because I am not what women want, even if they say otherwise.

The following is only speaking from personal experience. Like all manners of science, there are exceptions.

Women say they want an honest man. Translation: Women want a man who says what they want to hear. In many instances, this is impossible anyway so it's not worth trying. For example, "Does this dress/outfit make me look fat?" is the world's most loaded question, and also one of the most frequently asked of boyfriends/spouses.

Women say they want a man who treats them right. Translation: Women want a man who excites them. It doesn't matter how well I treat her, love her, or shower her with affection. She's looking for a man who gets the juices flowing and her heart pounding, even if it's because of the threat of cheating. Which leads me to...

Women say they want a loyal man, but then when given a man who's infinitely loyal, he's treated as a lesser man. I've, literally, heard a woman talking about me saying I quote "he's not man enough to go after another woman" when I was (obviously) pursuing her. See, my loyalty was treated as derogatory. I've heard similar stories from others as well.

There is nothing wrong with wanting any of these things. I just get frustrated with the whole hypocrisy of the whole thing. Maybe I've just had the world's worst luck with women, but I find it hard to imagine considering the various different type of women I've pursued in my lifetime.

I am a loving, caring, and honest individual who would never cheat on a woman. I would never physically or mentally abuse her. I would respect her goals and desires in life so long as she gave mine the same respect. I would care for her, in sickness and in health, 'til death do us part.

Translation: BORING

And it is because of this that I will most likely never find a partner. I could play by "the rules", but that's never worked because a women knows it's disingenuous. I'm not really exciting, I'm pretending to be exciting. I'm not actually exciting. This is who I am, and all I've ever wanted is for a woman I love for who she is, to love me in return for who I am.

What a stupid and delusional dream that is.

[Werefrog]

I guess it's true what they say: Women are from Omicron Persei 7. Men are from Omicron Persei 9.

[Blue_Sycro]

Just jumping here - I feel a bit of your pain, Nobi, but from the other side. I never ask stupid things like, “Does this make me look fat?” or “Are you sure my hair is okay?” because to me, those kinds of questions just come across as fishing for compliments, especially when it’s a woman asking a man. If I ever have a question like that, I ask one of my female friends.

When you say women want men who “excite” them, I know what you mean. I’ve seen a number of my female friends go out with complete douchebags, despite warnings, have it end badly, comfort them while they go on about how much men suck and they just wish they could find a nice guy, and then watch them go out with another douchebag. It’s infuriating, really. Maybe I’m insecure or jealous, but being cheated on is one of my worst fears, relationship-wise. I prefer "boring" then.

When anyone, male or female, acts like a jerk or makes snide comments all the time I instantly dislike them, and it’s usually very difficult for me to ever see them without a tainted perception. And if anyone, male or female, ever hit me, you can bet I’d be whipping out the king fu moves to beat their ass into the ground (but I'm not an aggressive or violent person in general).

All that being said, time and again I see men, including truly nice guys, completely overlook me to go out with obviously bad girls. I hear guys say they just wish they could find a girl who isn’t obsessed with clothes and makeup, and will play video games with them and won’t cheat on them or insist on taking her giggly friends with her wherever she goes, etc., and while I'm far from perfect, that’s pretty much me. But over and over I see guys pick the girl who is obviously a slut, or superficial, or fake or whatever over genuinely nice girls and then hear them go on about how awful and mean women are (keep in mind, I’m not trying to accuse anyone here of any of this, I’m just sharing my experience).

I think it's really just a matter of finding the diamond in the rough, lame as that sounds. It's been my experience that most people of both genders totally suck.

Edit: rereading this, I see it's incredibly ranty, though I didn't really mean for it to be. I'm not bitter, I don't hate men, and I don't think they're all attracted to mean girls. I wouldn't even consider myself a "nice girl" most of the time. I have an inability to get along well with most people on a deep level, which is why I'm sure I get passed up a lot. What I'm mainly trying to say is that you can't blame women/men in general when your love life doesn't always end perfectly. Again, diamond in the rough.

[meg]

lots of one-sided bitterness from a boy perfectly willing to lump half the human race into one stereotype.

http://www.heartless--Borgan-.com/rants/ ... s/ng.shtml

that's for you. i obviously don't know you personally, but whenever i hear boys ramble on like that, i start hearing my father, drunk on the phone, telling me that even though he was the only common factor involved in each of his five (six?) failed marriages, his divorces and women trouble are obviously never his fault.

you have a self-admitted problem with excessive arrogance. i have to wonder if you're a) chasing the wrong girls, b) blind to other personal faults (hence, the above link, to aid in self-examination), or c) both.

All that being said, time and again I see men, including truly nice guys, completely overlook me to go out with obviously bad girls. I hear guys say they just wish they could find a girl who isn’t obsessed with clothes and makeup, and will play video games with them and won’t cheat on them or insist on taking her giggly friends with her wherever she goes, etc., and while I'm far from perfect, that’s pretty much me. But over and over I see guys pick the girl who is obviously a slut, or superficial, or fake or whatever over genuinely nice girls and then hear them go on about how awful and mean women are (keep in mind, I’m not trying to accuse anyone here of any of this, I’m just sharing my experience).

I think it's really just a matter of finding the diamond in the rough, lame as that sounds. It's been my experience that most people of both genders totally suck.

QFT.

[phyco126]

So I talked to a co-worker about the make-up thing, and instead of biting my head off like so many before her, she explained it pretty well (and Meg pretty much said the same thing).

She said that women are ingrained to use make-up, even more so if they suffer esteem issues from bad boyfriends or just horribly mean fathers. So when you say they shouldn't wear make-up, they feel like their way of feeling pretty is being attacked, as well as they themselves are being attacked personally.

Edit: http://www.soulgeeks.com - check out fellow geeks.

[Monde Luna]

Psycho that is pretty much it. I'm a women who does NOT wear makeup and I am not an advocate of makeup. It makes me insane that women feel like they need makeup to feel pretty. Most women are gorgeous without it, and men don't need it so why should we. I've never had a guy tell me that I would look better with makeup. My husband LOVES that I don't wear it (saves money too) but sometimes women still encourage me to wear makeup. I try to tell them they don't need there and boom instant decapitation. I just think women are going to defend their makeup use till the death. Sure I can understand the use of makeup for some circumstances but usually I don't think it's needed.

[Nobiyuki77]

you have a self-admitted problem with excessive arrogance. i have to wonder if you're a) chasing the wrong girls, b) blind to other personal faults (hence, the above link, to aid in self-examination), or c) both.

If I didn't have the ability to self-examine, I wouldn't even be aware of how unjustified my arrogance is.

1) I'm on a diet to lose weight
2) I'm reading books on social interaction
3) I'm trying to look at new hobbies
4) I'm trying to learn new things and trying to be more interesting

That does not invalidate my argument and I specifically stated in my rant that

1) it does not qualify for all women
2) that I may just have horrible luck

I can try to improve and still be urked at the other side as well. I can't comment about how stupid and wrong men are in relationships because

1) I've never been in one
2) I've never pursued a man in a relationship

Therefore I cannot speak to that. Please do not put those assumptions on me. I apologize that I'm not able to change overnight.

Goddamn it... I'm sorry alright? I'm sorry... I don't know what else to say. I can only change so quickly... I just... Goddamn it.

[meg]

now, i'm not exactly sure why you're apologizing, or what assumptions you think i'm putting on you. if the "nice guy syndrome" described in the link does not match what you do, then by all means, disregard it. but i felt i should throw it out there just in case. because i've known lots of boys who pulled that stuff.

i'm also rather perplexed at this attitude of trying to "be more interesting."

isn't the point of dating to find someone who already shares your interests? as far as personality goes--that isn't something you can pretend at, or learn. again, why dating is important--to find someone whose personality clicks well with yours. i think you're attacking this from the wrong angle.

how good of a listener are you? and i don't mean that in the derogatory "you're not listening to me" way--i mean, when someone has a conversation with you, does that person feel like you are listening and interested in them as a person? because girls don't necessarily want to listen to you go on about the latest "impressive" hobby you picked up. that's not what connecting with others is about. and connection is what makes people stay.

and, btw--not everyone dates to get married. not everyone is ready to be serious. a lot of girls just want to have a good time. if you're hooked on a girl who spurns your offer of loyalty, she may just not be interested in you long-term. women do want all those things you mentioned--eventually. for some women, "eventually" is a long way off.

[phyco126]

Goddamn it... I'm sorry alright? I'm sorry... I don't know what else to say. I can only change so quickly... I just... Goddamn it.

But can we as a people truely change? There are many times where I have changed who am I and what I do, only to find myself back to who I *really* am several months down the road. I can go on a diet easily, but in 6 months, I may gain back my weight. I love food, its who I am, and the thought of eating foods I dislike for the sake of being healthy is, well, not that great. Or, for instance, getting confidence. Towards the end of 2007 I had built up a great deal of confidence, now I'm back to the "creepy wtf" personality who can't leave his house to go do something as simple as buy things at wal-mart. Not entirely sure how I got that confidence or why I lost it, but the end result says that I never did change. I'm no different than I was several years ago, any change I implement never holds.

This is also a good discussion for philosophy people, as it is often brought up in free thinking classes at school at least once: Can we really change who we are?

[Jenner]

I have always troubled myself over WHY a girl dyes her hair blond, to me, it equates to a woman getting a breast job. In the past, I used to ask Dyed Blond girls why they dyed their hair blond and they all pretty much told me because it makes them prettier. I just... that irks me on some deep "be proud of yourself" level... To this date, I have never once had a male friend have a fruitful, non-crazy, non-unfaithful, relationship with a girl who has dyed her hair blond. That doesn't mean that there are no dyed blonds out there that are not decent people. But, I'm still wary of them. If they're so unhappy with themselves they change a part of who they are to get attention and to be associated with stereotypes (easy, promiscuous, and foolish, as stated above) then they have more problems than they are worth. When my male friends introduce me to their GFs, or post pics of their GFs online and they're dyed blond, I get a foreboding feeling in my gut... I am always suspicious of them, I am a bad person. >.>

Now you've described both of my sisters, who have dyed their hair blonde. Inaccurately, I might add.

See, some people modify their body to appear attractive to someone else, as you imply. That does not make them bad people necessarily; it just means that they are willing to change a part of themselves to please someone else. It could mean that they depend on how others view them, but that's not necessarily the case.

Some people modify their appearance because they admire their own body, on their own terms, and they wish to change it on their own terms. How would that imply risque behavior?

People dye their hair, wear make-up, dress well, style their hair, or ornament their bodies for a variety of reasons. There isn't just one - to impress the opposite sex. They might want to impress the same sex, or impress themselves, or impress people beyond sexual attraction. I find your judgments patently biased.

I won't deny the bias and prejudice of my statements. I seem to have formulated a lot of these quirky little prejudices lately. I know the thought is wrong, Svet-Kun, I really do. I understand logically that there are exceptions and I know that this line of reasoning is illogical and wrong. I find a lot of comparisons to my rationale to people who are serious bigots about large populations. (I would wager Antisemitism is a larger range of hatred than Antidyedblondism) those being I draw my conclusions only from real-life interaction and word of mouth and accept that as fact for the whole populace of said group without investigating much deeper than the occasional curious inquiry. However, unlike true bigots and hate groups, while I am internally wary of my arbitrarily chosen subgroup, I do not openly treat them or interact with them with any hostility or resentment. I do not seek them out to harass them. And, if the person actually wants anything to do with me, shows interest in me, I will communicate and associate with them normally. I am less like the crazy man who drags women off the streets at night and flogs them brutally while reciting bible passages and more like the cranky old nun in the corner quietly tutting and grumbling under her breath at your scandalous knee-high dress. In the regard, my prejudice, while still a bias, is more "harmless" than the usual version. This doesn't justify it and nothing should. This line of thought and belief is wrong and I know it, it is a slippery slope and it is dangerous. It's a flaw about me I have been working on for a long time. I try very hard not to mean anything by my harsh judgments and I've come far in not acting on them. I'm not looking for acceptance, I know it's unreasonable, and irrational and I am ashamed. I hope, however, that you can understand that this is not intentional, or malicious.

you have a self-admitted problem with excessive arrogance. i have to wonder if you're a) chasing the wrong girls, b) blind to other personal faults (hence, the above link, to aid in self-examination), or c) both.

If I didn't have the ability to self-examine, I wouldn't even be aware of how unjustified my arrogance is.

1) I'm on a diet to lose weight
2) I'm reading books on social interaction
3) I'm trying to look at new hobbies
4) I'm trying to learn new things and trying to be more interesting

That does not invalidate my argument and I specifically stated in my rant that

1) it does not qualify for all women
2) that I may just have horrible luck

I can try to improve and still be urked at the other side as well. I can't comment about how stupid and wrong men are in relationships because

1) I've never been in one
2) I've never pursued a man in a relationship

Therefore I cannot speak to that. Please do not put those assumptions on me. I apologize that I'm not able to change overnight.

Goddamn it... I'm sorry alright? I'm sorry... I don't know what else to say. I can only change so quickly... I just... Goddamn it.

NOBI I HAVE FOUND YOUR SOLUTION. I suggest you pursue a man for a relationship.

[Nobiyuki77]

NOBI I HAVE FOUND YOUR SOLUTION. I suggest you pursue a man for a relationship.

lol. The funny thing is my history with women has been so abysmal that I actually tried to find men attractive just to see if that worked. But I'm just not attracted to men at all. I'm as straight as it gets.

[Alunissage]

This thread has been the perfect example of why, when meg is around and posting, I do best to just shut up and let her do her thing. ^_^

Re the hair-dyeing thing, I just remembered how whenever I was complimented on my hair at the time it was dyed, I'd have to say that it was colored. Eventually, I think, I managed to accept the compliment as being to my taste in color selection and hairstyling (which is to say, none whatsoever; I brush it and that's about it) rather than feel I was being dishonest if I didn't fess up that it wasn't natural and I actually had something to do with it. And really, how complimentary is it to be praised for something over which you have no control whatsoever? It's not like you did anything to earn it. It's not as clear-cut as that, of course, but it's something to think about.

Re change and being interesting, my husband does bemoan sometimes his feeling that he's not interesting, or actually that what he's interested in is so arcane that very few people are also going to find it interesting, thus leaving him mute. I'm not sure what that says, other than that I obviously married him anyway. It may be that we find plenty of things to talk about that aren't his specialty so I don't feel a lack of communication; he just feels wistful that he can't discuss some of what really interests him.

I've certainly seen him change over years, but that's not terribly surprising; he was 19 when we met and he's 28 now. I was going to follow up that with some comment, but I seem to have forgotten it.

Oh, I just remembered something my mom told me years ago. Way back when, before she met my dad, she was putting her makeup on -- which involved at least two colors of eyeliner and two shades of shadow, I think, this being the late 60s/early 70s -- and a male friend, possibly her then-boyfriend, watched this and asked somewhat incredulously "what are you doing?" She told me, "Here I was thinking I was making myself beautiful, and he thought it was utterly bizarre", or words to that effect. I don't know if that made any difference to her immediately, but I'll say that I've never seen her wear eyeliner, and hardly ever wear eyeshadow. Lipstick and mascara are about it, and both of those are pretty much dress-up occasions only.

[Angelalex242]

Ah, but the secret to life is that everyone is 10,000 times more interested in themselves then they are in anything else. Thus, the wise man talks about the other person, and maintains his interest as a listener.

[Sonic#]

Ah, but the secret to life is that everyone is 10,000 times more interested in themselves then they are in anything else. Thus, the wise man talks about the other person, and maintains his interest as a listener.

Bzzzt! Wrong!

People are more interested than themselves, that is true. They also want to know that the people they are with also have selves to be interested in. As a couple of the essays on the site that Meg linked to state, part of the problem of listening all the time is that you don't hold up the conversation, don't share any of yourself... there's no exchange.

[phyco126]

The vicious circle of a nice guy's life. Nice guy is too insecure about himself and as a result is terrified of harsh rejection. Girls hate nice guys and if that website is to believed, sees nice guys as disturbed ass's, and as a result harshly rejects the nice guy. Now the nice guy is even more insecure about himself, and as a result is even more terrified of harsh rejection. It's an evil cycle.

Of the wonderful points made on both sides, I understand most of it and am realizing the error of my ways. One thing I still don't understand is how being a insecure nice guy makes me a disturbed man who is suddenly the biggest -Albino Baboon- in the world, while the bonified jerks are the real nice guys because they are confident and who cares if they cheat on you? Huh? Explanations please.

[Monde Luna]

I think women just like confident men. And since a lot of nice guys happen to be insecure most women pass them by. Just my thoughts.

[Werefrog]

But hey, Woody Allen tends to get the girl in the end, right?

(I'm actually asking here as I've never watched a Woody Allen movie. He's just my exemplar for an insecure man.)

[Monde Luna]

That's a good question... I don't know.