Lunar Threads

i think this is a point where we have to agree to disagree, phyco.

Actually, I was trying to make a broad statement for all the see, my post wasn't pointed directly at you Meg. Nor do I mean to make people take back all those feelings they are feeling about those they lost, I just wanted to try to get everyone to see a different side of things.

It's true that forcing someone to live in circumstances which are truly not worth living in is selfish. A few years ago my grandfather died, after a year and a half of decline as his nerves degenerated. He joked -- except that he wasn't joking -- about having DNR (Do Not Resuscitate) tattooed on his chest. The whole Terri Schiavo thing was going on at the time and he was rather nervous about asking Mom what she thought of it because he really did not want to be artificially kept alive. He also admitted at one point that he'd tried to starve himself to get himself out of the way sooner. I think part of why he admitted that was realizing that if he did, my mom and uncle, his caretakers, might be considered to have killed him through neglect. Keeping him alive would have been selfish on our parts, and there was nothing selfish in his desire to end things sooner rather than later and remove the burden of caretaking from his kids. (Doesn't keep me from missing him, though, even now.)

However, there are many cases in which people are not in their rational minds when they choose to commit suicide, usually due to emotional rather than physical pain. They probably are in no condition to realize that emotional pain isn't usually permanently stuck at that high level they're feeling. They may think that they're doing their friends/family/the world a favor by removing themselves, without realizing that the immediate and long-term pain they inflict is far worse than whatever they feel they're doing in the short term. Or they may just not care who they mess up -- which is, of course, the definition of selfishness.

phyco126 wrote:If you had the same brain, it is very possible you would do the same exact thing they did.

If you had their brain, you'd have their experiences and memories. You'd BE that person. Gotta love the old "You don't experience it AS that person so you can't have an opinion." thing, though.

meg wrote:well, when it comes to suicide--yes, it can be selfish. but considering that the person most affected by the decision is the one who's dying, i do not judge.

If you PERCEIVE you judge. This sounds more like you just don't express it.

Jenner wrote:Yeh, Meg personally has saved my life on more than one occasion. I still sometimes wonder if it's worth bothering to go through the motions. But, I have someone to live for so even though it's a forced existence, I'm still finding moments of happiness and occasionally enjoying myself.

If you're referring to a boyfriend or husband, he must feel quite accomplished and be very pleased that you view life like this.

phyco126 wrote:I hate it when people call suicidals selfish. How is it selfish? Isn't it the other way around? I think it is more selfish to force people to live a miserable broken life for the sake of being able to keep them around for our own needs. Mother is selfish because she commited suicide, or perhaps am I selfish because I want her to be around so I have her to myself, or have access to her when I need something?* You know, its like I have the gall to say that life is worth living, so live damnit, because I demand your company. If you don't, your a selfish bastard. I mean, how dare you take your own life into your hands. I demand you continue your tortured existance for my benefit. I don't know the pain you are going through, so to hell with your feelings. They aren't nearly as important as how I will feel once you are gone. Yeah, its kinda like that. Instead of trying to prevent suicides by guilt tripping the person (which doesn't always work and may actually back fire) how about taking the time to actually help the person with their problems and try to walk them through them?

*Note, my mother didn't commit suicide, its just an example

EVERY action is selfish. We perceive the world as ourselves so we have to consider ourselves first. Even if it's a matter of dodging guilt or receiving the gift of giving.

Continue a tortured existence? How about working towards a brighter future? You give the people you love what they NEED before you give them what they think they want. Suicide is retarded and you shouldn't try to justify it just because you've been close with a handful of people who decided to throw away the only thing they were guaranteed.

And Alun, your grandfather's situation isn't the same. His condition barely qualified as living at all and he was on his way out the door already. I wouldn't put that on the same level as Megan Meier reading a few mean comments on her myspace and thinking "This has been the worst 10 minutes of my life!" and then dangling from the closet rack.

Alunissage wrote: However, there are many cases in which people are not in their rational minds when they choose to commit suicide, usually due to emotional rather than physical pain. They probably are in no condition to realize that emotional pain isn't usually permanently stuck at that high level they're feeling.

Emphasis mine. I thought this point needed a bump. And aside from emotional pain, suicidal tendencies can also be triggered by mental illness or medication. We can't expect everyone to step back and react rationally to things like bullying, emotional abuse, or physical pain.

I'm not suggesting that suicide is "okay" (I'll withhold my opinion on that).

Undine wrote:

Alunissage wrote: However, there are many cases in which people are not in their rational minds when they choose to commit suicide, usually due to emotional rather than physical pain. They probably are in no condition to realize that emotional pain isn't usually permanently stuck at that high level they're feeling.

Emphasis mine. I thought this point needed a bump. And aside from emotional pain, suicidal tendencies can also be triggered by mental illness or medication. We can't expect everyone to step back and react rationally to things like bullying, emotional abuse, or physical pain.

I'm not suggesting that suicide is "okay" (I'll withhold my opinion on that).

Don't. Let it be known how you see all of these things. Who cares if you end up stepping on a few toes in the process?

Benevolent_Ghaleon wrote:

meg wrote:well, when it comes to suicide--yes, it can be selfish. but considering that the person most affected by the decision is the one who's dying, i do not judge.

If you PERCEIVE you judge. This sounds more like you just don't express it.

when i am faced with something big enough that i can't say i understand it, i refrain from judgment. my personal experience with life is that even when it sucks, i seek to continue it. my personal experience with love is complicated, but, i have never been so smitten that i would choose to die rather than to go on without receiving it from a particular person.

ergo, the mindset necessary to suicide (the emotional, not the old and awful life quality kind) is simply alien to me. i cannot pretend to understand it. so, i refrain from judging it. it's easier to do than you would think. imagine the nastiest math problem you have ever seen. you cannot solve this math problem. this math problem looks like gibberish. do you look at that math problem and say "this is retarded"? no. it's a -Fatal Hopper- math problem. it has its own logic. it's not your logic, but it's logic nonetheless. a math problem is neither good nor evil. will you still be thinking about this math problem after lunch? not likely. you might regret the impact it had on your test, or the fact that you're failing math class, but the fact that you cannot solve this problem will not weigh on your conscience.

i do not understand my friend's choice. it upsets me that i was not able to help her, that i could not fulfill her sister's request. i have been having frequent dreams about my grandfather, while sleeping in her room. but it's a very easy thing for me to simply not judge her actions.

Undine wrote:

Alunissage wrote: However, there are many cases in which people are not in their rational minds when they choose to commit suicide, usually due to emotional rather than physical pain. They probably are in no condition to realize that emotional pain isn't usually permanently stuck at that high level they're feeling.

Emphasis mine. I thought this point needed a bump. And aside from emotional pain, suicidal tendencies can also be triggered by mental illness or medication. We can't expect everyone to step back and react rationally to things like bullying, emotional abuse, or physical pain.

I'm not suggesting that suicide is "okay" (I'll withhold my opinion on that).

Suicide cults are ok though.

Jenner wrote:Suicide cults are ok though.

better than okay. they're awwwright.

meg wrote:

Benevolent_Ghaleon wrote:

meg wrote:well, when it comes to suicide--yes, it can be selfish. but considering that the person most affected by the decision is the one who's dying, i do not judge.

If you PERCEIVE you judge. This sounds more like you just don't express it.

when i am faced with something big enough that i can't say i understand it, i refrain from judgment. my personal experience with life is that even when it sucks, i seek to continue it. my personal experience with love is complicated, but, i have never been so smitten that i would choose to die rather than to go on without receiving it from a particular person.

ergo, the mindset necessary to suicide (the emotional, not the old and awful life quality kind) is simply alien to me. i cannot pretend to understand it. so, i refrain from judging it. it's easier to do than you would think. imagine the nastiest math problem you have ever seen. you cannot solve this math problem. this math problem looks like gibberish. do you look at that math problem and say "this is retarded"? no. it's a -Fatal Hopper- math problem. it has its own logic. it's not your logic, but it's logic nonetheless. a math problem is neither good nor evil. will you still be thinking about this math problem after lunch? not likely. you might regret the impact it had on your test, or the fact that you're failing math class, but the fact that you cannot solve this problem will not weigh on your conscience.

i do not understand my friend's choice. it upsets me that i was not able to help her, that i could not fulfill her sister's request. i have been having frequent dreams about my grandfather, while sleeping in her room. but it's a very easy thing for me to simply not judge her actions.

By that logic, no decision is retarded. I've been miserable and hated life before. Nothing seemed to matter and I just cried, stared off most of the time and felt depressed for months. Did I consider killing myself? No. I knew things sucked but I also knew that it happens to EVERYBODY and that I'm not special for it. I knew that things would get better if I'd just force forward. I was right. Who knew? Oh wait...I did.

Benevolent_Ghaleon wrote:By that logic, no decision is retarded. I've been miserable and hated life before. Nothing seemed to matter and I just cried, stared off most of the time and felt depressed for months. Did I consider killing myself? No. I knew things sucked but I also knew that it happens to EVERYBODY and that I'm not special for it. I knew that things would get better if I'd just force forward. I was right. Who knew? Oh wait...I did.

I disagree, I think this board would have been better off if you had killed yourself then.
JUST KIDDING (maybe). You should know the temptation then. I'm surprised you have feelings B_G.

Jenner wrote:

Benevolent_Ghaleon wrote:By that logic, no decision is retarded. I've been miserable and hated life before. Nothing seemed to matter and I just cried, stared off most of the time and felt depressed for months. Did I consider killing myself? No. I knew things sucked but I also knew that it happens to EVERYBODY and that I'm not special for it. I knew that things would get better if I'd just force forward. I was right. Who knew? Oh wait...I did.

I disagree, I think this board would have been better off if you had killed yourself then.
JUST KIDDING (maybe). You should know the temptation then. I'm surprised you have feelings B_G.

True statement. I ALSO have the "You go to hell for killing yourself." belief also. Coley and the others mentioned may not have. But even if they don't believe in an afterlife or anything, why would you choose not to perceive anything ever again as opposed to finding a way to make it better? The world is full of people talking about their heartache and experiences.

Who the hell is so stupid that they can actually convince themselves that nobody could possibly understand what they're going through? "Nobody has EVER gone through a break-up like mine. I clearly hurt right now more than anyone ever has. Hey there, little starving child in a 3rd world country! Watch me off myself in the middle of a life you'd literally kill to have!"

Benevolent_Ghaleon wrote:True statement. I ALSO have the "You go to hell for killing yourself." belief also.

I don't have time to give this a proper reply as I'm late for work, but just curious why you believe that? As a Christian, I seriously disagree with that.

GhaleonOne wrote:

Benevolent_Ghaleon wrote:True statement. I ALSO have the "You go to hell for killing yourself." belief also.

I don't have time to give this a proper reply as I'm late for work, but just curious why you believe that? As a Christian, I seriously disagree with that.

Killing is a sin and you need to repent. You can't say "Okay, I'm going to gravely injure myself and then pretend to be sorry for it. This premeditated act will trick God into letting me into heaven."

So why didn't you bring a gun with you to church and shoot yourself in the temple after you were saved and baptized? Do you think you'd enjoy Earth more than Heaven? Or have you altered your views due to having friends that have committed suicide?

killing is a sin, but not all killing. the bible is chock-full of killing sanctioned by god. can you name any verses that specifically list suicide as a damning sin? or are you merely going by traditional dogma (which is catholic in origin, btw, and not really discussed in most protestant churches)?

also, per our previous discussion: there are several instances where i won't understand something, and i'll judge anyway. rape and murder, for instance. however, those also fail on the ethical level--they harm others. suicide's chief victim is the self (although there are obviously peripheral victims as well--my grandfather used a gun, so mom had to endure a night of questioning at the station as to her role in his death). but remember that i use the measure of my own understanding--ie, i do try to understand an action before i judge it. and most of the time i can. that doesn't mean i'll agree with an action--for example, i just had a fight with some friends who ousted a woman from our DnD game because she's getting divorced from their best friend (and she didn't ask for the divorce, he did). i understand perfectly why they did it. i even sympathize. but i still think it's petty gradeschool BS, and i've since chewed them out for it and quit their game myself.

but suicide is different in that the person who commits the act is no longer around to properly explain themselves. for better or worse, they've removed themselves from the equation, leaving only you, and their blank actions. at best you can infer, but you can never truly know.

Suicidal ideation is a common symptom for a lot of severe mental illnesses and conditions. (It's also a side-effect of certain drugs.) There are so many things that can affect our mental state, including tendency towards suicide, that it's difficult if not impossible to tell what someone is going through if they're in that state. Most of the suicide attempts that I've seen are the result of prolonged mental illness. I've since learned that judging someone like that is about as silly as judging a cancer patient for getting cancer.

PottleElf wrote:Suicidal ideation is a common symptom for a lot of severe mental illnesses and conditions. (It's also a side-effect of certain drugs.) There are so many things that can affect our mental state, including tendency towards suicide, that it's difficult if not impossible to tell what someone is going through if they're in that state. Most of the suicide attempts that I've seen are the result of prolonged mental illness. I've since learned that judging someone like that is about as silly as judging a cancer patient for getting cancer.

I'm focusing on the people who get sad over things that happen to pretty much everybody and then kill themselves. Screw 'em.

Benevolent_Ghaleon wrote:

PottleElf wrote:Suicidal ideation is a common symptom for a lot of severe mental illnesses and conditions. (It's also a side-effect of certain drugs.) There are so many things that can affect our mental state, including tendency towards suicide, that it's difficult if not impossible to tell what someone is going through if they're in that state. Most of the suicide attempts that I've seen are the result of prolonged mental illness. I've since learned that judging someone like that is about as silly as judging a cancer patient for getting cancer.

I'm focusing on the people who get sad over things that happen to pretty much everybody and then kill themselves. Screw 'em.

So you're focusing on a stereotype rather than the most typical occurence?

Of course he is. It's easier to be nasty and callous toward stereotypes when you don't let reality intrude and harsh your self-righteous mellow.

Sonic# wrote:

Benevolent_Ghaleon wrote:

PottleElf wrote:Suicidal ideation is a common symptom for a lot of severe mental illnesses and conditions. (It's also a side-effect of certain drugs.) There are so many things that can affect our mental state, including tendency towards suicide, that it's difficult if not impossible to tell what someone is going through if they're in that state. Most of the suicide attempts that I've seen are the result of prolonged mental illness. I've since learned that judging someone like that is about as silly as judging a cancer patient for getting cancer.

I'm focusing on the people who get sad over things that happen to pretty much everybody and then kill themselves. Screw 'em.

So you're focusing on a stereotype rather than the most typical occurence?

I also know people with several mental illnesses at once and they aren't going to kill themselves. MPD, SAD, depression and Bipolar in one for instance.