USA uses world as toilet paper? Or 50 years of revisionism?

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America: Good or Bad?

Good
3
60%
Bad
2
40%
 
Total votes: 5

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Aaron
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USA uses world as toilet paper? Or 50 years of revisionism?

Post by Aaron »

I wanted to make this thread because of a topic that was brought up in the Avatar thread.

Basically does the USA rape and pillage other countries/peoples resources for its own benefit? And if so what are some examples?

On the flip side, does anyone think that the USA is ultimately a force for good in this world or is viewing your country in a positive light merely propaganda seared into the minds of the young only to be liberated by the free thinking college professors?


My view is simple and I'll expand it if anyone has questions. The USA is the only country in the world that is literally, to quote Abraham Lincoln,
"We hold the power, and bear the responsibility. We shall nobly save, or meanly lose, the last best hope of earth."
Emphasis mine so that the last sentence would flow. But I wanted to include the entire quote. He of course was referencing the Civil War but it really is applicable at all times.

The history of the USA is filled with self sacrifice for people on other lands who would never ever see our country. Not to mention increasing the worlds knowledge in all the sciences, expanding women's rights and human rights.

I think that colleges and even high schools have done a huge disservice to us by educating people to view the USA as an Empire.

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Re: USA uses world as toilet paper? Or 50 years of revisionism?

Post by Kizyr »

There's a fundamental problem with your premise. You assume that to make any criticism of one's own country is the same as hating that country. My main disagreement isn't actually how you view the United States, but in what you think that criticism entails. Namely:
Aaron wrote:Basically does the USA rape and pillage other countries/peoples resources for its own benefit? And if so what are some examples?
On the flip side, does anyone think that the USA is ultimately a force for good in this world or is viewing your country in a positive light merely propaganda seared into the minds of the young only to be liberated by the free thinking college professors?
It's not a flip side, and it's a false dichotomy you present, where basically the only two choices are (a) ignore and suppress historical fact, or (b) despise everything about this country.
Or, rephrased, where the only two choices are (a) believe the US is infallible, or (b) be willing to learn about history and the present-day.

There are three main things I really, really like about this country.

One, is that Americans have a longstanding tradition of criticizing ourselves. There are very few places where it's ingrained into the national consciousness this way--basically, it means that you can have an open mind to history and the present, and admit the wrong things that've been done by this country (or are still done) and still believe that the US is ultimately good. (Only Australia and the UK come to mind as being similar in this regard. [West] Germany, possibly, as well.)

It's far more common, outside of the US, to find folks who believe that admitting to past mistakes means eliminating any sense of national pride. It's why the Japanese Board of Education approves history books that gloss over WW2 and colonial expansion. It's why (I believe) the Turkish government is so reluctant to admit to the attempted genocide of Armenians a century ago. It's why very few Pakistanis will even know about the background to the 1971 Bangladesh Liberation War.

The US, on the other hand, has this belief that we are ultimately a great country, to the extent that we can admit our mistakes without compromising this belief. No suppression of information is necessary.

Two, is that (for the most part, at least for the last few decades), the notion of being American isn't tied to a specific ethnicity. That is, we don't have any hangups about what it means to be "American". Immigrant groups generally assimilate much better into American life on account of it, particularly when compared to Western Europe (with the possible exception of the UK).

Three isn't really relevant. Basically, I love the fact that the Constitution takes precedence over majority rule. Since it's not relevant to the thread, though, I won't elaborate further.

Anyway, I'm just going to lay that out first before offering any examples. Because, well, you're offering a false dichotomy when there's a third option that's far better: accept the past, and learn from it, while still viewing your country in a positive light. A positive light doesn't have to blind you to the truth.

I'll go into examples gradually, but there're three periods that are most relevant:
- Initial settlement (prior to the Revolutionary War)
- Westward Expansion during the 19th century
- Cold War (particularly 1954 to 1987)
I'll also ignore how the US treats its own citizens, just to avoid this diverging into too many topics. So, yeah, I won't get into racism, slavery (except for the international slave trade), Japanese internment, etc. during this discussion. KF
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Re: USA uses world as toilet paper? Or 50 years of revisionism?

Post by CatsWithMatches »

Aaron wrote:My view is simple
Aye, it certainly seems that way.

It's very complex. We're a force for good that has been known to rape and pillage in the past.

I think the best way to sum up what Kiz was saying is this:

We're the best damn work in progress ever.

Our criticism of ourselves is what allows us to remain a force for good in an ever-changing world.

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Re: USA uses world as toilet paper? Or 50 years of revisionism?

Post by Sonic# »

Are those the only two choices? I typed this up before Kizyr replied, but I hope my tired words go well with his

I like this country, its form of government, its songs, its cultures, its foods, its heroes, its grand historical events, and its languages. We have done a lot of good in the world, including intervention in both world wars, the foundation of the United Nations, the post-WW2 Marshall Plan, Amendments 13-15 and 19, reforms that promoted equal treatment irrespective of race and gender after the 1950s and 1960s, government funding of scientific research and the corresponding encouragement for math and science education, and many, many other actions.

But I don't let my pride blind me. The United States is like any other country, or any other person. It tries to do the right thing. Many times it does. But it has had weak moments and blind moments. It continues to have them.

Examples of the US raping other peoples' resources for its own benefits:
1) The treatment of indigenous peoples from 1607 to the present. Part of the time we negotiated with them in good faith. But there were many, many times when we would treat tribes dishonorably for our benefit. The most egregious example for me personally is centered around the Trail of Tears. Andrew Jackson evicted an entire tribe from their lands in order to satisfy the white settlers and prospectors of northern Georgia and southern Tennessee. The Cherokee, the Choctaw, and the other Civilized Tribes weren't hurting anyone. They had their own printing presses, an alphabet - by 19th century standards, they were modern. The Supreme Court even ruled that Georgia could not pass regulations against a tribe, since it was to be treated as a nation (Worcester v. Georgia, 1832). But Jackson ignored them.

There are many other instances of such ignorance. The last decades of the nineteenth century for example, as the tribes were pressed even further west into other reservations and Oklahoma was opened to white settlers, applying pressure on already-relocated populations. They would also remove the Native American youth from their homes at young ages and put them in schools to Americanize them. And the agencies that were founded to make sure that such a process remained fair to Native Americans, like the Department for Indian Affairs, were underfunded and corrupt.

In sum, we have not treated the true Americans fairly.

2) Slavery, an institution that was prevalent in the States for over eighty years after their formation. Even after slavery was abolished, the racism that originally served to justify slavery instead caused a second class to form. Despite passing three amendments meant to ensure the rights of all men, they were habitually ignored in both the north and south, and the social treatment of blacks was abysmal. Despite the civil rights movement, you can still see vestiges of racism remaining (if you're generous, you would describe them as simple vestiges. If you're not, you would say it's just there). I need only point out the scientifically documented biases in individuals' behaviors preferring whites over blacks, and both over hispanics, for instance. And this is without mentioning our approaches towards immigration, and malignment of groups that wish to immigrate: Germans, Irish, Polish, Chinese, Hispanics, and so on.

3) Women. The nineteenth century saw a general erosion in women's rights, as medicine at the time deemed them incapable of simultaneous mental and motherly exertion, and society deemed them as suited only to the women's sphere. The 19th amendment granting women suffrage was a good step, as were the various initiatives in the 1960s and 1970s. By all rights, we treat women pretty well. But the average pay for women is still below that of men's, there is still a great discrepancy in the amount of household work done by women as compared to that done by men in households where both work, insurance companies will cover erectile dysfunction more easily than they will forms of contraception, contraception outside of condoms is typically seen as a female problem...

4) Okay, how about something more international. The Spanish-American War. Vietnam. The War of 1812. All wars led by a war-hawk part of our population, all for different reasons, but none of them particularly good.

... okay, I'm getting tired, but I'm sure someone else can point out better examples than I can.
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Re: USA uses world as toilet paper? Or 50 years of revisionism?

Post by Werefrog »

Guys, don't answer the question. It's a trap!!!

Also, to add to Sonic's examples, the US involvement in Latin American politics during the Cold War is pretty good example of the US unfairly taking advantage of other countries. I don't really feel like going into details. The US is a great country founded on lofty principles. Sometimes we don't always follow these principles, but I think we're getting better for the most part.

Also, I don't appreciate the sentiment of anti-intellectualism in your post.

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Re: USA uses world as toilet paper? Or 50 years of revisionism?

Post by Nobiyuki77 »

I love this country, and feel privileged to have been born here. I was lucky, several millions of people around the world living in poverty wouldn't even have the ability to type messages on the internet the way I am right now, on a message board dedicated to the analyzing and discussion of a fictional world created by blokes in a completely different country for the sheer fun of it all, without having to worry about how I'm going to eat or if the fighting is going to find its way to my neighborhood today.

We have it pretty damn good. But that doesn't mean it's perfect, and it's perfectly alright to

1) accept that
2) try to close those gaps to become an even BETTER country
-Nobi

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Re: USA uses world as toilet paper? Or 50 years of revisionism?

Post by Imperial Knight »

The premise of this topic is extremely simplistic, and the use of college professors as some kind of boogeyman is laughable. In short, I basically agree with Kiz.

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Re: USA uses world as toilet paper? Or 50 years of revisionism?

Post by Aaron »

I spent a long time on this and I would appreciate it if anyone were to read this do so in its entirety and I promise I will reciprocate the attention.
Kizyr wrote:There's a fundamental problem with your premise. You assume that to make any criticism of one's own country is the same as hating that country.
Criticize in what way? To paint the past 173 years as negative and only the years after the civil rights movement as positive? With a few exceptions of course. That seems like a dichotomy to me.

But I agree with you, criticism of the USA does not mean you're less of anything or that you hate America.

About Indians:
Anyone remember Thanksgiving?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thanksgivi ... _States%29
Just about 3 or 4 years after the first Thanksgiving this happened.
During the Indian Massacre of 1622, nine of the settlers at Berkeley Hundreds were killed, as well as about a third of the entire population of the Virginia Colony. The Berkeley Hundred site and other outlying locations were abandoned as the colonists withdrew to Jamestown and other more secure points.
Yes boys and girls that included women and children. Not very nice...It's estimated that it was around 400 people.

Also, wasn't it the French, British, Russian, Spanish, Dutch, and German countries who really went around killing Indians/using them? Anything Pre-1730'ish is really not even American.



http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/c ... 804-03.png
[Changed to URL to avoid stretching the page - KF]
Please note the date on the map. Also think about the Indians living in those previously European colonies in that time period. They were already subject to foreign rules. Was it really better off under French or Spanish rule?



Addressing the Trail of Tears and the War of 1812.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trail_of_Tears
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_of_1812
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Andrew_Jackson
He had no desire to use the power of the national government to protect the Cherokees from Georgia, since he was already entangled with states’ rights issues in what became known as the nullification crisis. With the Indian Removal Act of 1830, the U.S. Congress had given Jackson authority to negotiate removal treaties, exchanging Indian land in the East for land west of the Mississippi River. Jackson used the dispute with Georgia to put pressure on the Cherokees to sign a removal treaty.
By the way, it is a historical fact that the Indian Removal Act passed by 1 vote. 1 VOTE!!! And the people who participated in removing Indians were the SAME people who in 1861 wanted to fight to the death with the North over a racist bigoted notion. But there is a whole slew of reasons why Jackson was so spiteful of the Indians. If you read about his life, he has a history of fighting Indians.
The War of 1812, between the United States of America and the British Empire (particularly Great Britain and British North America), lasted from 1812 to 1815. It was fought chiefly on the Atlantic Ocean and on the land, coasts and waterways of North America.

There were several immediate stated causes for the U.S. declaration of war: first, a series of trade restrictions introduced by Britain to impede American trade with France, a country with which Britain was at war (the U.S. contested these restrictions as illegal under international law);[4] second, the impressment (forced recruitment) of U.S. citizens into the Royal Navy; third, the British military support for American Indians who were offering armed resistance to the expansion of the American frontier to the Northwest.
Again this is before the Trail of Tears and before the Indian Removal Act of 1830. Indians were already being used by foreign powers to fight the US. And the British blockades are literally enough justification for the War of 1812. Think about it too, the veterans of the 1776 Revolutionary war were still alive. That threat and fear of re-assimilation into the British Empire was present.
During the War of 1812, Tecumseh incited the "Red Stick" Creek Indians of northern Alabama and Georgia to attack white settlements. Four hundred settlers were killed in the Fort Mims Massacre
Another anecdotal example of Indians being used by the British to attack the USA.
After touring the area for several months and conferring with the Creeks who had already been settled there, the seven chiefs signed on March 28, 1833 a statement that the new land was acceptable. Upon their return to Florida, however, most of the chiefs renounced the statement, claiming that they had not signed it, or that they had been forced to sign it, and in any case, that they did not have the power to decide for all the tribes and bands that resided on the reservation.
Funny how a group of people who have no representative leader or concept of land ownership can be forcibly moved because they wouldn't leave the land they owned. What about the Indians that stayed and assimilated into American culture?

Now if we take all that tiny information into account, would you be comfortable living next to someone who maybe 10 or 15 years ago tried to kill you? How is this any different from Afghanistan? A small group of people attack and kill a bunch of Americans and then we go wherever we have to in order to make sure that it never happens to us again.

How is it that when taught about this in school we are taught that it was something that the USA propagated/devised in order to fulfill some WASP fantasy about God & country? Why the negative light? That is something that needs to be dealt with. It's easy to look back and say something should have been done this way in order to have a better result. But at the time, people then were living with the constant threat of death by murder from the British and Indian tribes. The Indian's were not just these simple naive people who were not morally incorruptible. I'm sure if one were to look into Indian history you would find practices that would be abhorrent when compared to laws. Some Indians had slaves with them on the Trail of Tears. There were an estimated 2000 Slaves who marched in the Trail of Tears.

Now I'm not saying that we didn't do anything wrong. The passing of the Indian Removal Act is a prime example of mob rule. But even still, it passed by 1 vote; a simple majority. But we are as I stated earlier the last best hope. Where previous countries would have committed genocide against enemies, Americans negotiated and assimilated. For those who would not accept, we moved them. The oddity of all this is if none of this action had taken place, the USA would not have existed in its form and strength.

But even with all this, it wasn't so orchestrated, and methodically executed as say the trains running to the Nazi death camps. None of the Indians were pushed under military escort (as far as I know).

But my big issue is why does American history have to be driven by what moral failings this country has had. History should be a record, and a fact. Not an inference and a deduction. Leave it to the student to decide if morals are at play. There should not be institutionalized indoctrination of political views. Anyone could just as easily teach history a American Exceptionalist view. But most choose an anti-American view, and I'm not talking about critiquing and point out the evil the nation has done. But the prevalent fatalistic view of our generation to look back on America and shudder. What's wrong with teaching that the USA is unique or even morally superior to other nations? The hesitation to speak of these things in academia is rather dogmatic in that you cannot go against newly established views of history. What this new view of history has done is really divide the religious and the atheist Americans.

No longer is it taught that America is founded on Judeo-Christian values and for what gain? A relativistic view of history, morals, and life?

About the perceived anti-intellectualism in my post. That is not the case at all. Why is it that intellectualism is confined to what you believe? Hmm?

I think you can agree that professors impart to their students their view of historical facts? And the overwhelming majority of professors share a liberal ideology. It makes it so that the educated are placed into colleges where they merely rehash the same anti-American themes that have influenced global thought outside of America. That weakens us immensely.



More to come later. (feel free to comment)

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Re: USA uses world as toilet paper? Or 50 years of revisionism?

Post by Sonic# »

So we didn't commit genocide, and therefore, we are morally superior? I'll get the measuring stick, let's see if we can capture the difference in centimeters!
History should be a record, and a fact. Not an inference and a deduction.
I ask this sincerely: have you ever studied history in a detailed manner in a university setting? So much of historical "fact" is inference and deduction, as we interpret primary documents and material evidence to form a timeline of causal and correlative relations. We also try to verify or invalidate the truth of various sources based on how they corroborate other trusted sources. I agree, history should be a record, but the point of contemporary historiography is to acknowledge that even a faithful effort at recording will still be somewhat problematic, as some inclinations will nonetheless present themselves. The hermeneutic of skepticism extends even to the professors, so that the students, if properly taught, will seek to verify any form of bias their professors present them. That is certainly how I teach in English.
What's wrong with teaching that the USA is unique or even morally superior to other nations?
What happened to leaving the morality to the students? That is precisely what contemporary historiography tries to do, and teaching a message of American exceptionalism would rather betray that goal.
The hesitation to speak of these things in academia is rather dogmatic in that you cannot go against newly established views of history.
Sure you can. I don't know the names of history scholars that do so, but in my own field, there are prominent figures like Harold Bloom who have made a career out of speaking against any literary theoretical trend more recent than deconstruction. The issue is that you have to have a reasoned argument against these new methods, as well as an incorporation of the new methods' information into older historiographical projects. Some, by the way, do this.
No longer is it taught that America is founded on Judeo-Christian values and for what gain? A relativistic view of history, morals, and life?
By this statement, your issue is not the correctness or incorrectness of contemporary historical methods, but rather that they do not interpret history in the same way. The naive question to your answer is, "Were we founded on Judeo-Christian values?" Better questions would be these: "What relevance, if any, do Judeo-Christian values have to the founding of this nation?" ; "Were the values seen as Judeo-Christian, or as humanistic?" ; "Were there other values that were as important, or more important, than these?" ; "What are Judeo-Christian values?" I haven't seen anyone give an adequate answer to all of these questions. And I think the answers to these questions give the reason why we shouldn't simply teach that America was founded on Judeo-Christian values.

And I would also point out, to your second sentence, that nothing I've said implies relativism on its own. One can take an objective view of history and still acknowledge that validation and verification of historical data are still methodological problems. As well, one can still see that the objective view may be more complicated than a sticker-sentence slogan like "America is founded on Judeo-Christian values." I seek to be more faithful to literary and historical meaning, and not less. And I love my country more after I've learned of its flaws, because I better know what I love. That does not make the United States exempt of anything.
About the perceived anti-intellectualism in my post. That is not the case at all. Why is it that intellectualism is confined to what you believe? Hmm?

I think you can agree that professors impart to their students their view of historical facts? And the overwhelming majority of professors share a liberal ideology. It makes it so that the educated are placed into colleges where they merely rehash the same anti-American themes that have influenced global thought outside of America. That weakens us immensely.
Naive.

Again, my observations are these:

Decent professors know that what they teach is not the final say, and acknowledge their liberal perspective while letting everyone else make up their own minds. They impart their skepticism, even more than their views. And I must admit, there is more to be skeptical towards in the old, propagandistic views of history, than the contemporary ones. Both deserve skepticism, but in teaching students who have learned only the first view, initial examples of inquiry must work against these. Only after that can students then ask relevant questions for and against other views of history: postcolonial, queer, and so on.

"Intellectual" is a term that designates those who work in academia, normally in the university systems around the world. It is a particular designation of profession in this case. And you are opposed to them implicitly, by calling most of them liberal and implying that this fact alone makes the teaching "brainwashing" and the evils of relativistic thinking. Instead, I see them as encouraging better thinking of any sort, whether objective or relative. As I indicated in the Judeo-Christian part, it enables us to know what we know, and how we understand what we know, instead of dealing in fuzzy distinctions. (You'd be amazed how many "objectivists" don't realize the fuzziness of their own "definitions.")

For the material of the rest of your post, I hope someone can give it the treatment it deserves. I make a few observations against your argument.

1. Native American aggressions against Americans does not make the American treatment of them better. Do their actions justify ours? Never, unless you're more draconian than I thought. You did not, for instance, address the treatment of Native Americans past the later 19th century, including the events surrounding the Ghost Dance.

Yes, there was considerable fear of Native Americans that live nearby. But why did they live nearby? Hmm. Maybe it was because the settlers moved near to the Native Americans first? You move a population into a space, and there is inevitably competition over resources once they become scarce. Thus the early English were led to believe that America was a tabula rasa fit for colonization and settlement, a view that erases the native presence. They presumed that the natives had the same sense of property, and when they didn't, they assumed it was due to inherent inferiority. The noble savage, but the savage nonetheless. Why do we think that Jamestown and Plymouth were settled in lands untouched by natives? Why do we assume that any subsequent assault against them is injust simply because they have a right to defend themselves? Both have valid claims to defense. So it isn't as simple as settlers having a fear of the natives, requesting protection, and then moving them further west. Both sides were wrong. Both sides' responses were sometimes understandable. That does not make them innocent.

2. More nuanced is your claim that other nations were using Native Americans to fight their battles. I have two responses:
a. If we are then to treat those tribes that allied with other nations like autonomous nations that have made an alliance, then why did we not respect their sovereignty even after we defeated them? Why did that give us the right to move their population, take their land and property, and so on?
b. In the example of the Cherokee, they were decidedly not aggressive against settlers. They were the antithesis of aggressive: well-adjusted, educated, moral. If you imply that the settlers shoved them out due to fear, and that such fear was justified, then you've just observed the horrible thing that we have done. We piled many different groups under one negative appelation, and gave in to our fear to subjugate that group in order to feel more safe. Think of the treatment of Japanese-Americans during World War II, for instance. The pattern is not inevitable, but it is habitual.

3.
And the people who participated in removing Indians were the SAME people who in 1861 wanted to fight to the death with the North over a racist bigoted notion.
People can write theses over whether the Civil War was fought over concerns about slavery, or whether it was fought over conflicting claims of sovereignty under federalist and confederate notions. It's probably a more complicated interaction of both ideas.

And a legislature changes radically in thirty years. People die. Others get elected. So your claim that they were the same people is rather dubious.

Finally, you seem to imply that the north was never culpable in any racist action. They abolished slavery earlier, true. And I suppose that, since they got rid of their Native American populations earlier, they did it with more tact and less visibility?

4. A correction to an assumption you give with your map. You assume that the lands a particular nation claims imply that the nation had control over all the tribes within those lands. Incorrect. The lands west of the Mississippi were largely unexplored when Lewis and Clark took their expedition; by then, most of the lands were under American rule, save for Spanish and British holdings west of the Rockies. National interference at the time was restricted to lone traders in these areas. Even east of the Mississippi, the countries only exercised limited control over the areas, trading and negotiating. It was only after the Americans controlled these areas that large scale military interventions, and thus rule, were possible.

Finally, I just want to say that you are very thought-provoking, even as I disagree with you. And I appreciate the time you put in your response.
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"Than seyde Merlion, "Whethir lyke ye bettir the swerde othir the scawberde?" "I lyke bettir the swerde," seyde Arthure. "Ye ar the more unwyse, for the scawberde ys worth ten of the swerde; for whyles ye have the scawberde uppon you, ye shall lose no blood, be ye never so sore wounded. Therefore kepe well the scawberde allweyes with you." --- Le Morte Darthur, Sir Thomas Malory

"Just as you touch the energy of every life form you meet, so, too, will will their energy strengthen you. Fail to live up to your potential, and you will never win. " --- The Old Man at the End of Time

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Re: USA uses world as toilet paper? Or 50 years of revisionism?

Post by Imperial Knight »

Well, Sonic# covered a lot of what I would like to say, but there are a few things I'd like to note.
Aaron wrote: But my big issue is why does American history have to be driven by what moral failings this country has had.
I consider this entire discussion flawed because I can't agree with your premise. I don't believe that the way American history is taught is driven by what moral failings this country has had. The views presented are generally more balanced than "American bad, be ashamed."
Aaron wrote: I think you can agree that professors impart to their students their view of historical facts? And the overwhelming majority of professors share a liberal ideology. It makes it so that the educated are placed into colleges where they merely rehash the same anti-American themes that have influenced global thought outside of America. That weakens us immensely.
It's far more nuanced than that. A good professor is not going to tell students what to think about any subject. They certainly may have their own perspective, but (a) they'll generally be upfront about it from the beginning and disclose any biases they have, (b) these biases and perspectives often don't fit into some conservative/liberal dichotomy and (c) they won't attempt to teach their perspective as some absolute truth. The idea is to learn how to think about historical issues (or whatever the class is about) not what to think. Now, there certainly are professors who do act as though their way of thinking is the only way, but they're a decided minority.

Also, while it certainly is true that self-identified liberals outnumber self-identified conservatives by a wide margin in academia, that doesn't imply that students are going to be given an indoctrinated in ideological ideas, and it certainly doesn't imply that professors hold largely anti-American views.

In general the main problem I have with this topic is how it just reduces everything down to "America is good" or "America is bad." Your first post just sets up such a ridiculous contrast and just seems to be largely based on stereotypes. Saying "is viewing your country in a positive light merely propaganda seared into the minds of the young only to be liberated by the free thinking college professors?" doesn't really accurately portray points of view other than your own.

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Re: USA uses world as toilet paper? Or 50 years of revisionism?

Post by phyco126 »

Well, I myself can't really answer this, but I can answer it from what I've seen from my fellow collegues and friends.

1. If you are a Democrat, you are a liberal -Plantella- who wants to save the world and you hate America with your guts.

2. If you are a Republican, you hate the world and demand that Christianity be forced upon the world, with violence if you have to, and you love America with your guts.

Seriously, I need to stop hanging out with the far left and right. =/
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Aquaignis
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Re: USA uses world as toilet paper? Or 50 years of revisionism?

Post by Aquaignis »

phyco126 wrote:Seriously, I need to stop hanging out with the far left and right. =/
Sounds like you need some friends from the Libertarian and/or Constitutional party. :) Should balance out then...lol
Some of the answers in this post are made of frozen lose with whipped failsauce topping and suck sprinkles......

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Werefrog
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Re: USA uses world as toilet paper? Or 50 years of revisionism?

Post by Werefrog »

I'm pretty sure people from those parties are part of the far right.

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Aquaignis
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Re: USA uses world as toilet paper? Or 50 years of revisionism?

Post by Aquaignis »

True, but they clash on plenty of issues to not be considered Republican, and such is the reason for my mentioning it, but, enough of this, as i fear that we have strayed far from the topic...
Some of the answers in this post are made of frozen lose with whipped failsauce topping and suck sprinkles......

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