Final Fantasy VII

[phyco126]

Actually, I ended up likeing the Materia system. Although I never understood or messed with it enough to get different spell combinations, I still had control over what sort of magic my party could use.

As for FFX and FFX-2, I still haven't played those games. I want to, however, and someday I will. Though I already love them both, because the animations and voice acting already got me hooked. Took em long enough for freaking voice acting, sheesh.

One of the things that I still find lacking in the modern FF games is the fact that you can't rewatch movies unless you save before them, and because of the brilliant placing of save points a great distance away from said clips, it makes it impossible to enjoy the actual animations.

[BraveKing]

Actually in 10 you can rewatch the cut scenes. But in the end the voice acting varied widely in quality. And wile the battle sytem was definatlly a nice one (ROT IN HELL ATB AHHAHA) But the charecters in X proved to be far more infruiating thn the ones ones in 7 aside from a few (LulU and Auroun those guys were cool) Tidus are alleged hero was one of the biggest spazes in gaming history

And then X-2 or as I like to call it Yuna's fun time dress up special. ATB comes back (booo) and the charecters who wwere annoying become even more annoying.

[GhaleonOne]

I dunno, I thought the characters in X were good. I actually cared about them. In fact, I didn't dislike any of the main characters, and felt the story was well done. They also seemed to change styles from FF7-9, which had really dreary coloring in the graphics, to really bright and vibrant colors.

[BraveKing]

There were some things I did like, generally the enviorments were nce and bright and everything was quite colorful.

I ddint much care for the Sphere Grid thingie, felt that was really lame. Sure it's original I guess but original dosent mean good

My biggest complaint was Tidus. He was just such a wuss

I really dont know what square was thinkign when they made there heroes anymore. I mean Cloud, totally bi poplar, Squall, YAY I GET TO PLAY AS AN EMO JERK!! Zidane...Zidane was cool actually, he didnt get hung up on emotional bagagge as much. and Tidus who is to games what Shinji Ikari is to anime

[Angelalex242]

Zidane has my eternal respect for getting over his only emotional crisis in 5 minutes.

[PurifyWeirdSoul]

*WARNING* LONG REPLY ALERT!

Wow, I'm surprised! This forum is alive and kicking after all. I'm surprised this topic has seen such interest.

There have been 3 FFs per platform if you don't count side stories and spin offs, which Square has been making since the NES days (the original Seiken Densetsu, for example).

I don't consider the Mana series to be a spinoff of the Final Fantasy series. Had Mana been similar to FF, I'd have to agree, but they're so different. FF Tactics and FF11 are what I consider spinoffs of Final Fantasy.

Since, as you say, FF11 is an MMO so it doesn't technically count, it doesn't matter if S-E releases expansions for it, and it doubly doesn't matter since a large-scale MMO all but needs expansions to stay viable.

It is true MMORPGs need expansions, but 2 is really overkill. Take Blizzard for example. Ever since their inception, at most they released 1 expansion pack. That was all that was needed. Support was/is exceptional. I haven't been following Blizzard now-a-days, but they've always been good about releasing patches upon patches. It wasn't just about bug fixes. In each patch were huge additions in content, or balance issues being resolved. They didn't have to milk their customers with expansion after expansion. Blizzard even stated this in an interview a long time ago. I am all for expansions, but I wouldn't be surprised if FF11 has a third expansion. Anyways, I'm just saying Square is becoming quite the greedy hog when it comes to milking the fans.

FF7 had a negative impact on the RPG genre because FF7 reshaped the genre. It was RPGs with pre-rendered backgrounds, three-character parties, and a cast of aproximately 10 playable characters as far as the eye could see. Is it any wonder that they've fallen out of favor?

I'd have to disagree with you there. The RPG genre is ever evolving, and the games post FF7 have been fantastic. I'm not saying all the RPGs were great, but FF7 definately raised the bar in quality. You'll still find a lot of junk, there there are definately some top-grade RPGs out there. Here's a little list for those that are unfamiliar with elite RPGs that almost every fan of the genre should own post FF7:

-Valkyrie Profile (PS)
-Breath of Fire 3 (PS)
-Breath of Fire 4 (PS)
-Chrono Cross (PS)
-Xenogears (PS)
-Akumajo Dracula X (a.k.a Symphony of the Night) (PS) This may not count as an RPG, but it's pretty damn close. Best game ever (almost).
-Dragon Warrior 7 (PS)
-Genso Suikoden II (PS)
-Tales Series (PS) Not all of the games in the series are that good, but it's a pretty good series.
-Persona 2 (PS) Not everyone will like it, but it's still a solid RPG.
-Star Ocean: 2nd Story (PS)
-FF Tactics (PS)

-Princess Crown (SAT)

-Zelda Series (N64)

-Fire Emblem (GC)
-Zelda series (GC)
-Tales of Symphonia (GC)

-Star Ocean: Till End of Time (PS2)
-FF X (PS2) I know I bash this game, but it's still pretty good for an rpg. I'm not prejudiced enough to acknowledge that.
-Shin Megami Tensei: Nocturne (PS2)
-Disgaea (PS2)
-La Pucelle Tactics (PS2)
-Makai Kingdom (PS2)
-Phantom Brave (PS2)
-Growlanser 2 (PS2)
-Radiata Stories (PS2)
-Shadow Hearts series (PS2)
-Atelier Iris:Eternal Mana (PS2)
-Dragon Quest VIII (PS2)

-VALKYRIE PROFILE 2 (PS2) This game is going to rock the RPG genre as the first installation did. VP > FF.


Judging from that small list, I'd say RPGs are alive and kicking. You won't find better quality games than those I just listed. Also take into account the decent RPGs I didn't list. That's thousands of hours of RPG-gaming-goodness.

Anyways, the RPG genre has become more popular after the initial release of FF7. If anything, FF7 helped the RPG genre. Since RPGs are more popular, more games are being developed. More games = alot of cr*p, but alot of good ones as well. The genre is not dead folks. The RPG genre has never been better.

[PurifyWeirdSoul]

Speaking of which, if anything, the main Final Fantasy series has been neglected for years now. FFX was the last standard Final Fantasy game that wasn't online. True, there was FFX-2, but that was extremely short, and definately not worth the 50 bucks I paid for it. I'm actually looking forward to FFXII. I generally have a great time with the main Final Fantasy series when they're released, but after playing through them, they don't retain the charm that Lunar 1 and 2, Chrono Trigger, Suikoden 1-3 and others do. At least for me. The only Final Fantasy games that stuck out to me were VI and X. None of the Playstation ones, nor IV and V really made me care about them after being them, and I hated the NES games, and still do. People love the original Final Fantasy, but I always found it extremely boring.

Although I bashed FFX greatly, it's still a pretty good game. The voice acting, grid/sphere system, and story telling turned me off. All/most FF games stood out up until 7 for me. Each one was special in their own way, and are memorable. After 7, FF wasn't the same to me.

[Sonic#]

Here's a little list for those that are unfamiliar with elite RPGs that almost every fan of the genre should own post FF7:

I resent this list, because there are several games on the list that I didn't haven't played, and several games that I would have included. It seems like many of your judgments depend on what you've played. That and you're assuming that FF7 is this great nexus of RPG playing.

As an example of the games that could be on the list ... Skies of Arcadia, Grandia, Grandia II, Kingdom Hearts, Lunar (*cough*), Growlanser III (why just 2?), Brave Fencer Musashi, Legend of Legaia (another PS1 3D RPG), Legend of Mana, etc.

Of course not everyone is going to agree these are excellent (which I think), but they're there. Any elitist list will exclude them, and thus exclude the possibility for judgment.

[BraveKing]

Legaia had the aweomseness of the pimp scene, so yeh totally hsould have been on the list

also fails for lack of Phantasy Star 4

[Alunissage]

There are also other fundamental flaws, like "Zelda series (N64)". Zelda's just had its 20th anniversary, it was well-established before FF7, and the most RPG-like Zelda was in...1987? Citing its continued existence as proof that the RPG genre is alive and kicking is ridiculous; Zelda is its own genre, and while Ocarina is possibly my favorite it's far from being a N64-only series. Or a GC-only series; I just noticed it's there twice.

What else...

It is true MMORPGs need expansions, but 2 is really overkill.

How many releases were there of PSO? I'm pretty sure the answer is "lots".

Wow, I'm surprised! This forum is alive and kicking after all.

This is a smaller group devoted to an older series. It's not going to have the level of activity of a larger board with a current series (Genesis notwithstanding, as that's mostly fizzled out now), but it's not dead, and expressing surprise that it's "alive and kicking" is insulting.

[PurifyWeirdSoul]

I resent this list, because there are several games on the list that I didn't haven't played, and several games that I would have included. It seems like many of your judgments depend on what you've played. That and you're assuming that FF7 is this great nexus of RPG playing.

As an example of the games that could be on the list ... Skies of Arcadia, Grandia, Grandia II, Kingdom Hearts, Lunar (*cough*), Growlanser III (why just 2?), Brave Fencer Musashi, Legend of Legaia (another PS1 3D RPG), Legend of Mana, etc.

Of course not everyone is going to agree these are excellent (which I think), but they're there. Any elitist list will exclude them, and thus exclude the possibility for judgment.

That list isn't the end-all-be all of RPGs. It was just an example. And although those games you mentioned are pretty good RPGs, they weren't on my list because they aren't the best the genre has to offer. Also, my list was post-ff7. Lunar doesn't count because obviously it was released before FF7. I can't comment on Grandia, as I haven't played the series. I tried to get into Grandia 1, but for one reason or another never got through it. Kingdom Hearts is meh, to me. Growlanser 2 was much better than 3 imo. Brave Fencer Musashi isn't what I'd consider an RPG. Legend of Legaia wasn't that great.

I'd say I have plenty of experience when it comes to the RPG genre. I've played many games, experienced many stories, and those games are what stood out among the crowd. Obviously I haven't played every RPG out there. However, tell me one game that I listed that isn't considered 'great' among rpgs?

BTW, I forgot one major RPG that is post FF7. ALUNDRA 1. If anyone hasn't played that game, and you're a fan of Zelda-esque games, you owe it to yourselves to play it. The difficulty can be a bit much at times, almost to the point of frustration, but it is an awesome, awesome game.

[GhaleonOne]

You could make a case for some of the RPGs Sonic mentioned, but saying Skies of Arcadia, Lunar and Grandia aren't in a list of "best of" genre, while games like Breat of Fire IV are, that's just absurd. Opinions are opinions sure, but Skies, Lunar and Grandia are pretty well recognized as some of the greatest RPGs of all time.

And Lunar SSSC and EBC did come out after FFVII. Well, SSS's Saturn import may have been before, but not by much. I'd have to check dates. SSSC and EBC are different enough from their original Sega CD games to warrant being mentioned for sure.

Though agreed regarding Alundra. It's very overlooked and underrated.

Not trying to pick a fight by any means here. I just think you're slighting some of the games Sonic mentioned, when they're some of the best in the genre. Many of the games you listed definately are up in a "best of" list as well, but a few really don't fit as well as the three listed above.

[PurifyWeirdSoul]

There are also other fundamental flaws, like "Zelda series (N64)". Zelda's just had its 20th anniversary, it was well-established before FF7, and the most RPG-like Zelda was in...1987? Citing its continued existence as proof that the RPG genre is alive and kicking is ridiculous; Zelda is its own genre, and while Ocarina is possibly my favorite it's far from being a N64-only series. Or a GC-only series; I just noticed it's there twice.

On the contrary, by 'Zelda series (N64)', I didn't mean the zelda series from the past (that's why I had N64 in perentheses).

-Zelda: Majora's Mask (4/27/2000 Japanese release date)
-Zelda: Ocarina of Time (11/21/1998 Japanese release date)
-Final Fantasy 7 (1/31/1997 Japanese release date)

There you go. The two Zeldas came out after FF7. BTW, Zelda is a RPG. It's an ACTION-RPG. Just like there are turn based rpgs, mmorpgs, and strategy rgps (tactics). And of course there are the GBA Zeldas that I haven't played that were released on the handheld with rave reviews.

As for Zelda being there 'twice', I wasn't counting the N64 games on the promotional Zelda CD released on Gamecube. GC has Zelda: Windwaker, and Zelda: Four Swords. Now I haven't played Four Swords, so that's why I stated 'Zelda series (GC)'. However, I have played Windwaker, and it is definately good. It wasn't my favorite Zelda by any means, that would have to go to Link to the Past.

[BraveKing]

I always considerd Zelda more an adventure game than an RPG

[PurifyWeirdSoul]

You could make a case for some of the RPGs Sonic mentioned, but saying Skies of Arcadia, Lunar and Grandia aren't in a list of "best of" genre, while games like Breat of Fire IV are, that's just absurd. Opinions are opinions sure, but Skies, Lunar and Grandia are pretty well recognized as some of the greatest RPGs of all time.

And Lunar SSSC and EBC did come out after FFVII. Well, SSS's Saturn import may have been before, but not by much. I'd have to check dates. SSSC and EBC are different enough from their original Sega CD games to warrant being mentioned for sure.

Though agreed regarding Alundra. It's very overlooked and underrated.

Not trying to pick a fight by any means here. I just think you're slighting some of the games Sonic mentioned, when they're some of the best in the genre. Many of the games you listed definately are up in a "best of" list as well, but a few really don't fit as well as the three listed above.

You're right. Lunar:EB did come out on SS after FF7. Lunar:SSS however came out in 96 (japanese). FF7 (97). Like I previously said, I haven't played the Grandia series, so it was ommited. And Skies is probably the best Dreamcast RPG, but I didn't like it as much as some. As for Breath of Fire 4, it's borderline. On the other hand, Breath of Fire 3 is definately imo the best BoF the series had ever the the pleasure of gracing.

The point of my posts: Final Fantasy 7 was not the apocalypse that some make it out to be.

[PurifyWeirdSoul]

By now, I've probably been pegged as some Final Fantasy 7 psycho, nutcase, fanboy with too much Final Fantasy in his brain. FF7 isn't even in my top 10 of favorite RPGS. I'm just defending a great game. I'll take Valkyrie Profile, BoF3, Alundra, Star Oceans, and Lunars any day of the week over FF7.

[Alunissage]

And once again you're missing the point. You cannot make a list of games that came out post-FF7 to support your claim that FF7 somehow has credit for them coming out and include installments of series that were established well before then. People didn't buy Zelda 5 because they liked FF7, they bought it because they liked the earlier installments of the series, as you yourself mention. (Same with DQ, which I've heard is bigger than FF in Japan.) Link's Awakening surely came out before 1997, and the Oracles games are more closely related to it than to the 3D ones. (I consider WW the weakest of the Zeldas, by the way.)

Furthermore, Zelda may be called an action-RPG, but its origins are hardly RPGlike in the sense of, say, FF1. And the debate on whether it should be called an RPG at all continues to this day. Adventure might be a better term.

Alundra is, as you mention, a Zelda-type game, and as such owes little or nothing to FF7. And are you looking at Japanese releases or American? Obviously the Lunars were not released domestically until after FF7, which suggests you're using Japanese dates, but you omit Growlanser I (1999, and superior to II) and list DQ7 as DW.

And you pretty much undo your implied claim of authority in assessment of what stood out in the crowd by so clearly indicating that your personal taste has eliminated games which other people here have said they consider to be worthy of inclusion.

Oh, and it's not necessary to double-post; just edit your previous post to add new material.

[Imperial Knight]

I think the biggest problem with your list is how it's presented. If it were just presented as a list of personal favorites, or even as "I think these are some of the best RPGs out there" I'm not so sure it would have gotten the same reactions. But when you have it as "games every RPG fan should own" it comes off a little too much like trying to force your opinions on others (even if it wasn't necessarily intended that way), so people are going to disagree pretty strongly with it. I certainly don't agree with every inclusion/exclusion on that list. For instance, after playing Disgaea, there's no way I'd actually buy any other Nippon Ichi SRPGs.

Growlanser 2 was much better than 3 imo.

I happen to like Growlanser III better, and opinions among Americans who have played the games tend to be pretty evenly split as to whether GL2 or GL3 is better. But perhaps more to the point, they're sold together, so if you own one you own the other. Now, the imports aren't sold together, but then you'd have to factor in Growlanser and Growlanser IV, both of which are nearly universally acknowledged to be better than GL2 and GL3 (a sentiment I agree with).

[BraveKing]

I liked 3 myself, 2 was really good but 3 was just a tad better and seemed more complete. You can easliy miss out alot in 2.

also Annette=Rrrrrrrrraww <3

[Alunissage]

Now, the imports aren't sold together, but then you'd have to factor in Growlanser and Growlanser IV, both of which are nearly universally acknowledged to be better than GL2 and GL3 (a sentiment I agree with).

Hey, now. I have the Growlanser Collection, so they have been sold together.

By the way, I sent you a PM about Growlanser, did you see it?