Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

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Alunissage
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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by Alunissage »

It'd be entertaining if it weren't so utterly wrongheaded. As it is, it's just disturbing to see someone being that obtuse without actually being stupid.

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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by brightshield »

They never were favorite in the first place.

I was saying that they were your favorites from that game, not some of your favorites period.


I liked Marta and Richter.

Pray tell what was good about Marta and Richter. Richter was a whiny crybaby, and Marta was incredibly shallow and obsessed with a wimp/psychotic god.


Games like ToV, TotA, Grandia 1/2, Lunar 1/2, Phantasy Star IV are still much better.

They're all way better than Dawn. Only the two Lunars and two Grandias are considered better than Symphonia though.


And this is why the argument keeps going in circles and why Eclipse and other people are a bit frustrated.

Is it my fault that people can't even admit simple things, such as the Yankees being a superior team to the Mets?


No, they're really not all about fanservice. You might be able to argue that to an extent with the Tales series since so much of what they do entails crossovers (which is somewhat expected of a series that focuses on characters), but it's definitely not the case with every gaiden, so please stop generalizing.

I was referring to the Tales series with that comment, not every Gaiden ever to exist.


And yet you were arguing that a slight difference of about 0.3/10 points made Symphonia the definitive king of all Tales,

I'm saying that opinion factors into the written review itself, not so much the score. Sometimes a company will love a game, but take off points due to a few technical issues. To them it doesn't detract from the game at all, but it is a problem with the game. So points must be deducted regardless of the the reviewer's opinion.


not to mention that you ignore anything unlocalized and just say, "Eh, wasn't good. Haven't played it, but I just know."

I never said they weren't good, just not some of the better games in the series. If Namco thought they had an epic masterpiece on their hands, they'd port it over.

Also, I'm not completely ignorant on the unreleased games. I have researched the story and characters of the games. I've also listened to some of the music, and watched a few scenes on Youtube. Now considering that I've played around 8 Tales games, I think I have a fair idea of how the games play. I can pretty much tell that Destiny Remake, Rebirth, and Hearts are good games, but the rest are merely mediocre at best.


Being honest doesn't require you to call people fools

Did I ever call any of you fools? I bashed the hardcore Tales and FF fanbases, but that's it.


or to mock their opinions.

Well you can't expect me to take a blind fanboy seriously. Hell, no one does.


But in truth, Shiva's ultimately right.

You just pulled a complete 180. You went from saying that I brought up these things, so that no one could possibly disagree with me(therefore indirectly acknowledging them as facts). To saying that they're all just opinions. How does that make any sense at all?

Call my argument what you will, but at least I'm consistent. You just changed your argument completely, just for the sake of going against me.


I assume what you really mean is that gold is more valuable than silver

Yes. That's why it's better. If I was going to give you 500 silver bars or 500 gold bars, which would any sane person prefer?


But I don't think anyone's said that.

Symphonia was called the worst game in the series. Now Dark Fairy probably meant that it was her least favorite, but I was hungry for a debate and ran wild with it.


You said that Lloyd refused to listen to Yggdrasil's arguments, which I pointed out was made fairly irrelevant by the fact that Yggdrasil was insane and thus we don't expect Lloyd to listen to him. How does that not respond to that part of your character analysis? Even if Yggdrasil seems to debate calmly, the story isn't written in such a way that we think for an instant that Lloyd should follow what he says. There's not more to Lloyd just because there's more behind Yggdrasil's motives. Lloyd still always does what he thinks is right. If you want me to address the rest of what you said, the only thing I find moderately unique is that he's portrayed as something of a dolt.

Only "societal norms" make Yggdrasil insane though. Therefore, it's just an opinion. IMO, he's the only sane one in the game... see how ridiculous this opinion crap is getting?


Using force against the wicked is kind of par for the course in high fantasy, so I'm not really sure why that's special for a hero.

He threatens to use force on non villains though. Like when he threatens to fight the guy who wants to have a cook off against Regal.

He also constantly smack talks people he considers asshats. Lloyd tries to instigate a fight against the people who bump into Colette at Palmacosta, and Zelos' group of girls at Meltokio. Granted he's not directly responsible for starting the confrontation, but he adds lots of fuel to the fire, while most protagonists would try to calm everyone down. That makes him more of a smartass, than a standard hero.


Er, I meant I was stopping that post right there. =(

Oh, okay. =)


Anyway, brightshield, that stuff about gold and hamburgers starts to fall apart when you hold it against an objective standard.

Really? So then explain to me how the Yankees aren't superior to the Mets. Explain how a brand new Corvette isn't superior to a 10 year old Honda with 500,000 miles on it. These are the two easiest ones to prove my point.


'Gold is more valuable than silver' is true, you can go look up the value; 'gold is better than silver' is only true in certain situations.

Gold and silver are mostly judged by their value, so that's mostly what I was referring to.


You decided that 'gold is better than silver' for yourself - it's your opinion and ultimately it's meaningful only to you. (Assuming that's really how you feel on the subject.)

I don't really prefer one or the other.


To apply this to video games, your assesment of any work of fiction is a non-objective opinion that's no more or less valid than anyone else's.

Actually, works of fiction can easily be judged objectively. There's a reason why something like Citizen Kane is hailed as one of the best films of all time, while something like Epic Movie is failing miserably...


It'd be entertaining if it weren't so utterly wrongheaded. As it is, it's just disturbing to see someone being that obtuse without actually being stupid.

Well, like I said, I'm a stubborn bastard. Unless you can prove me 100% wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt, I'll keep debating. This in fact was just the type of reaction I was hoping for when I entered this thread. Nothing like a long debate to liven a board up. ^_^

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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by Werefrog »

brightshield wrote: Well, like I said, I'm a stubborn bastard. Unless you can prove me 100% wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt, I'll keep debating. This in fact was just the type of reaction I was hoping for when I entered this thread. Nothing like a long debate to liven a board up. ^_^
Okay, this is the problem right here. The burden of proof does not fall upon us. It falls upon you to convince us that this game is "better." We rejected your evidence for several important reasons. Either come back with a new argument besides "these games sold the most and had the highest reviews therefore they are the best" or just quit arguing.

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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by Lunar Eclipse »

brightshield wrote:I was referring to the Tales series with that comment, not every Gaiden ever to exist.
Then, as I said, you can make that argument to an extent, but you're still incorrect on several fronts. Tales of the Tempest has no story/character connections to previous games, nor do Tales of Tactics, Tales of Breaker, Tales of Commons, Tales of Wahrheit, and Material Dungeon. In fact, Tales of Tactics even has its own gaiden. Only then are we left with the sequels (Narikiri Dungeon, Summoner's Lineage, Dawn of the New World) and the exclusively fanservice-oriented titles (Narikiri Dungeons 2 and 3, Radiant Mythologies 1 and 2, the Fandom discs, and Tales of VS.). So there's still a good deal of original material even amongst the gaidens.
brightshield wrote:I never said they weren't good, just not some of the better games in the series. If Namco thought they had an epic masterpiece on their hands, they'd port it over.
That's assuming Namco Bandai has enough faith in the sales of Tales to begin with. The fact is that it's a relatively unknown series over here, and even the best sales it attains in the west tend to be as a drop in the bucket to more well-known releases. After all, if they were really trying to localize the "best", why would they localize Phantasia GBA with all of its glaring technical issues over Phantasia ~Full Voice Edition~? Dismissing Japan-only games simply because you think the company ought to be feeding you everything good is ridiculous.
brightshield wrote:Did I ever call any of you fools? I bashed the hardcore Tales and FF fanbases, but that's it.
Uh, you did say it, though in an adjectival form. You called people foolish for liking certain characters.
brightshield wrote:Well you can't expect me to take a blind fanboy seriously. Hell, no one does.
Where is the blind fanboyism you're seeing? It's not as if anyone here is saying the Tales series is the greatest thing since sliced bread. We were discussing which titles we liked and which we didn't. There's no blind adoration. Again, if anyone's following anything blindly, it's you with review scores.
brightshield wrote:But in truth, Shiva's ultimately right.

You just pulled a complete 180. You went from saying that I brought up these things, so that no one could possibly disagree with me(therefore indirectly acknowledging them as facts). To saying that they're all just opinions. How does that make any sense at all?

Call my argument what you will, but at least I'm consistent. You just changed your argument completely, just for the sake of going against me.
As I said in the next sentence, when I responded to you, I allowed for certain societal norms to play into what I'd call objectivity, i.e. monetary value being an oft used measure of "goodness". When I realized after Shiva posted that you had simply used the general term "better", I felt I should lend some support to what Shiva was saying since you were trying to use my own statement against her when my only point at that juncture was that you were trying to throw out things of societally objectively greater monetary or cultural value to distract us all from the actual issue at hand. And I don't see the shame in correcting oneself when you realize you spoke erroneously.
brightshield wrote:Yes. That's why it's better. If I was going to give you 500 silver bars or 500 gold bars, which would any sane person prefer?
If you were giving them to me to carry across the desert, I'd probably pick silver instead since it's lighter. Or if the market changes and gold loses value, I could pick silver instead as well. Or if I were a mirror manufacturer, I'd take silver. Or if I lived in a society that already valued silver more than gold, I'd definitely pick the silver again. Kind of depends on the situation since objective monetary value in any particular place at any particular time is neither free from the bonds of change nor the sole aspect of any material that we should consider.
brightshield wrote:Symphonia was called the worst game in the series. Now Dark Fairy probably meant that it was her least favorite, but I was hungry for a debate and ran wild with it.
Let's take a little walk down Memory Lane.
Dark_Fairy wrote:Symphonia was a good game, there was just something lacking that made it a little boring for me. I think the reason why I like Symphonia 2 better is because it hasn't bored me at all.
Dark_Fairy wrote:... however, I think Emil was DEFINITELY a better character than most of Symphonia cast. Emil has tons of development.
Dark_Fairy wrote:Most people DO consider ToS to be superior to ToS. I get that and understand that. I just prefer ToS2. It had something more exciting about it than ToS. ToS is actually really bland IMO, but at least ToS2 kept me interested in the game.
Looks like there're lots of mentions of "my opinion" and "I think", so I'm not sure what your argument is here. As I said before, most people here have been very clear about making sure that they say when their opinions are their opinions. You were the only one getting frustrated with people for *gasp* liking a game with a lower review score over one with a higher review score.
brightshield wrote:Only "societal norms" make Yggdrasil insane though. Therefore, it's just an opinion. IMO, he's the only sane one in the game... see how ridiculous this opinion crap is getting?
It's only ridiculous when you don't try to refute any of my actual arguments and instead just go, "Haha, look, opinions so ridiculous~!" This was the kind of debate over opinions on characters that I doubt most people mind until you ignored everything I argued to use it as a poor point in the unrelated debate that was going on above. What most people mind is your implication that certain opinions are wrong and (typically) inferior to your own because review scores told you otherwise.
Let those who war with life forfeit their own! -- Mareg, Grandia II

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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by Sonix »

I was saying that they were your favorites from that game, not some of your favorites period.

Seriously come on, I NEVER SAID that. They never were, are not and never will be favorite from that game. Zelos is one character. Collete and Lloyd were ok while others just sucked.


They're all way better than Dawn. Only the two Lunars and two Grandias are considered better than Symphonia though.

I've yet to hear anything else then praises for Phantasy Star IV. And I keep hearing seeing/hearing mixed opinions on ToS (as well as ToV and TotA). Since you love going by reviews, PS IV has 86% on Gamerankings (it does have 6 reviews but still)
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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by Shiva Indis »

brightshield wrote:Well, like I said, I'm a stubborn bastard. Unless you can prove me 100% wrong beyond a shadow of a doubt, I'll keep debating. This in fact was just the type of reaction I was hoping for when I entered this thread. Nothing like a long debate to liven a board up. ^_^
So what you're saying is that you did it for the lulz? Sigh.

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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by Werefrog »

False. People are stupid for agreeing with me.

Also, I'd do anything for lulz, but I won't do that.

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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by Nobiyuki77 »

A+ thread, would read again.
-Nobi

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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by brightshield »

So what you're saying is that you did it for the lulz? Sigh.

Dammit... I knew I should have been more subtle in the phrasing of that paragraph. It was just getting good too. I was going to accuse Lunar Eclipse of believing in hippy bull****, and bring in this whole argument about genocide and religion. After I got this thread to page 10, I was planning on coming clean, but you found me out a few pages too early. You have to admit that it was working pretty good, for the most part though. I was clearly trolling, but phrased everything in such a way as to make myself sound innocent. Yet, I still packed enough venom in my words to irritate people.

Anyway, do I really believe any of what I said? Somewhat. However, I'm not nearly as extreme about it. Except, for my Yankees example, and the Twilight thing. I really do think that the Yankees are just a better team than the Mets. They win more, plain and simple. I also really believe that the Twilight Saga is a poorly written mess(with over 50 plot holes). I won't make fun of someone directly or indirectly for liking it though.

I don't think that pro reviews determine how good a game is, but the actual reviews are useful in deciding if the game is right for you. I also think that certain things can easily be decided objectively, but I'm not nearly qualified enough to determine what the best of EVERYTHING is, lol. Especially, not when it comes to the Tales series since I haven't played more than half the games. That was a clear sign that I was just messing with you guys right there. I'm not so arrogant as to belittle something, that I've never played.

I wish we could keep going, but you exposed me a bit early. So it's kind of pointless now.

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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by Lunar Eclipse »

I won't make fun of someone directly or indirectly for liking it though.

Uh, clearly you will if you enjoy trolling about it. But whatever.
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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by brightshield »

Uh, clearly you will if you enjoy trolling about it. But whatever.

Not when I'm being serious, but yes, I do see your point nonetheless.

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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by Alunissage »

So in addition to making yourself look like a blithering idiot, you're trolling. Don't do that.

Also, kindly comply with the other rules to which you agreed when you joined the board. That sig is rather more than 150px tall.

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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by brightshield »

So in addition to making yourself look like a blithering idiot, you're trolling.

:lol:

I knew it was just a matter of time before I got flamed, and by a moderator no less. You flatter me madam.


Don't do that.

:shock: So trolling is bad... but flaming is fine?

Seriously, you're making too big of a deal out of this. Look at all the responses I got. People were enjoying the debate, whether it was stupid or not. There's nothing wrong with that. I was only trolling in the sense that I was trying to spark extreme controversy, which I'm sure many posters are guilty of doing at some point. Hell, you didn't even know I was trolling up until the moment I revealed it. I was just being "incredibly obtuse without actually being stupid". So as long as I don't admit it next time I'll be fine, right? You'd never catch me if I just kept the "innocent and ignorant" facade up.


Also, kindly comply with the other rules to which you agreed when you joined the board. That sig is rather more than 150px tall.

Sure, removing the sig is not a problem.

I just find it a bit strange that someone who believes in following the rules so strictly, would break them herself. Flaming is also against the rules, and you had no problem with doing that. Granted, I don't mind at all, but it makes it hard to take the rules seriously when even the mods are breaking them.

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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by Kizyr »

No trolling please.
No policing, please.
(Both are mentioned in the forum rules, by the way.)

I think this line of the conversation can end in a civil manner at this point. The original topic of the thread can continue if you wish. Thanks. KF
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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by Kizyr »

No really, I mean it. The original topic can continue.

Also, thank you for removing the sig. It was really large and against the guidelines, so I would've requested that you remove/resize it if you hadn't done so already. KF
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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by kazuya »

I’m not overconfident so I’ll rate it a 1/7 and shut up about it and tell people insisting they’re right to get away
Darkness beyond twilight
Crimson beyond blood that flows
Buried in the stream of time is where your power grows
I pledge myself to conquer all the foes who stand
before the mighty gift bestowed in my unworthy hand
Let the fools who stand before me be destroyed
by the power you and I possess...
DRAGON SLAVE!

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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by ShugoHanasaki »

I really enjoyed the game (^.^)
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