Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

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Lunar Eclipse
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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by Lunar Eclipse »

brightshield wrote:I agree. Graphics will always improve. However, Symphonia's graphics were more impressive for their time.
Not really, especially considering Wind Waker came out before it with what's usually considered to be better cel shading.
brightshield wrote:It would be praised highly in graphics no doubt. However, that's not a fair comparison. My point with graphics before was that Symphonia looked good on the Gamecube. It was easily one of the better looking cell shaded games on the console. While Destiny and Eternia were outdated and unimpressive on the PS1, especially Eternia. Of course, I'm not saying that Symphonia is technically more impressive than Vesperia graphic-wise.
Even if you believe that Symphonia looked better at the time, it only proves my point about there being too many time-specific factors involved. Neither game is graphically deficient, so it shouldn't really even factor into an analysis of which game is the "best" in the series. It does however factor into review scores, so the scores clearly aren't judging the games on story, characterization, level of enjoyment, and overall effect alone.
brightshield wrote:Cell shading is accepted on the 360. Eternal Sonata looked beautiful(which I hate to admit since I can't stand the game). The problem is that Vesperia came out after that game, but didn't look anywhere near as good.
The difference is simply in the styling. Eternal Sonata's cel shading was meant to give a richer, more hand-painted feel. Vesperia's mimicked the slick, more uniformly colored style of anime, which was also pretty necessary if there was to be any continuity between the game itself and the anime FMVs. Plus, again, the same argument of Eternal Sonata vs. Vesperia could be made for Wind Waker vs. Symphonia.
brightshield wrote:The sound quality is definitely better on the 360, but the actual music was fairly unmemorable in comparison to Symphonia. I mean come on, who can forget Lloyd's theme, Colette's theme, Sheena's theme, Krato's theme etc.
Can't remember Lloyd's or Sheena's at all, and I only remember Colette's because the Dawn of the New World sad remix was actually good for once. I only remember that Symphonia's music was generally annoying, a few nice town themes and great FMV tracks like Harmony and Revival aside. I'd rather have fitting ambient music that isn't necessarily memorable over stuff that's mixed poorly and too consistently blaring to fade into the background appropriately. Plus, a lot of people think some of the Vesperia themes are among the best in the series. I believe a lot of people really like Fury Sparks and the Dahngrest theme, and I happen to think that Yormgen's theme is one of the best town themes Sakuraba's done for the series. But as I said, I don't think Sakuraba's Tales sound design is ever particularly good. It's just that Symphonia stuck out to me as especially bad.
brightshield wrote:This couldn't be more false. Symphonia has some of the biggest names in the industry providing voices. Cam Clarke, Kari Wahlgren, Tara Strong, James Arnold Taylor, Jennifer Hale, Crispin Freeman etc. Troy Baker is good in Vesperia, as is Michelle Ruff. No one else is even in the same league as the people I mentioned. Hell, I'd go as far as to say that NO ONE in Symphonia itself is even slightly on par with Cam.
Er, and the people voicing Vesperia are some of the biggest in the industry at this point too. It's just that they're the major players in the non-union circles, so their names aren't published often. I agree that Cam Clarke is very good, and he's definitely one of my favorite ever (love Ryudo in Grandia 2), but I believe that a combination of the acting and the direction is what makes the voice acting great. Symphonia was directed by Nao Higo, and I didn't think he did a good job of making everything flow. As I said, a lot of the delivery is wooden and doesn't string together well (i.e. reactions aren't quite right, etc.). Vesperia used Peter Garza, who does splendid work, in my opinion, and he has a background in theater to boot. Plus, the casting is flawless. Even Karol is spectacular in spite of the fact that most little boy characters end up sounding like little girls. But again, this is opinion. I just prefer to focus on the direction rather than the names of the actors. Still, regardless, I think Vesperia should come out on top in sound design for the quality of the soundtrack, the greater attention to detail with sound effects, and the (at least) similar level and greater quantity of voice acting.
brightshield wrote:I never said this at all. Gameplay-wise Symphonia is the best in the series. It just doesn't have the best battle system. It's got by far the best dungeons in the series, with some great puzzles. Not to mention that the combat is quicker in Symphonia than it is in Vesperia. Vesperia also seems to suffer from a slight lag during combat. I'll concede that Abyss has a better battle system than Symphonia, but Vesperia is more or less on par with it, due to the problems I mentioned. So overall the battle systems are about equal(I still prefer Symphonia's since I like speed more than the free run feature), but the dungeons are vastly superior in Symphonia. So yeah, I'd definitely say that Symphonia has much better over all game play.
Hm, I hadn't considered Symphonia's puzzles, so good point there. I still think Vesperia's puzzles were passable, plus there was a lot more to do in terms of minigames, including the puzzle box warehouses and the amazing poker at Nam Cobanda Isle, which was like a game unto itself that I spent hours playing. Still, yeah, the dungeon puzzles for Symphonia were better. However, I'd disagree on the battles. They're notably better in Vesperia, and I'm not sure what lag you're talking about unless you just mean that Yuri's startup is slower, which is just part of how he's designed as a fighter. If you play anyone other than Lloyd in Symphonia, you'll find they move much more slowly as well, Sheena aside. Also, Symphonia didn't zoom out for multiplayer, which was a horrid design choice, plus character that you weren't playing could free run and sidestep, making one wonder why the player character couldn't do so as well. Overall, it felt as though a lot was left out since you could see the remnants sitting around in other aspects of the gameplay. The battle system was just really rough around the edges, which is to be expected with their first foray into 3-D, but I really don't know how it can be argued to be better.
brightshield wrote:Again, I'm not talking about any review in particular, just the overall average. I'm sure I could find plenty of reviews that say that Symphonia is the best, and plenty of reviews that go against this idea. The overall average is what determines how good a game is though.
When you talk about all reviews, you by extension talk about every individual review as well, and, as I said, the overall average determines how good a game is perceived to be on that console and at that time. Find any Tales community that isn't GameCube/Symphonia-centric, ask what Tales game is the best, and you'll get a really wide variety of opinions. It's not going to be Symphonia, Symphonia, Symphonia.
brightshield wrote:I guess I just prefer higher quality actors then. As I said, Symphonia used much better actors. Clearly more money was put into the VA than any other game in the series.
There's not much difference in quality. It's just that you apparently care more about particular names. Also, Clarke has come back several times (Will in Tales of Legendia, to reprise Kratos in Radiant Mythology and Dawn of the New World), so it's silly to act as if the talent pool has gone down the drain. They're constantly grabbing actors of the same quality, at least for the mothership releases. Admittedly, they're paying less now because they've got non-union instead of union, but that doesn't diminish the quality since a lot of famous actors (Clarke included) will go non-union to pile on more work.
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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by Kizyr »

What's been going on for the past 2 pages of posts?!

No really, this is all a ton of stuff about a series I don't know much about (I only played Tales of Phantasia--which is my favorite game outside of the Lunar series, mind you, but still my only exposure to the Tales series). So I can't really follow what the deal is.

Are y'all discussing (or arguing?) about whether or not ToS2 has aged well (graphics-wise or story-wise), the quality of the story, both of the above, etc.? KF
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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by Monde Luna »

Lunar Eclipse I can't believe you can't remember Sheena's theme. Personally I find it to be very memorable. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPfTJbyJcHc

I have been enjoying listening to you Brightshield debate. :mrgreen:

I don't wish to join the debate but I will just throw out my personal tales fav list:

1) Abyss
2) Symphonia
3) Vesperia
4) Destiny
5) DotNW
6) Legendia -ranks so low because of the lack of character development during the 1st half. It bothers me that the characters don't develop until after the main quest

~These are the only tales games I have played~
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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by Sonix »

Kizyr wrote:Are y'all discussing (or arguing?) about whether or not ToS2 has aged well (graphics-wise or story-wise), the quality of the story, both of the above, etc.? KF
Not really. They are arguing (or discussing?; see what I did there, lol) about which one is better, Tales of Symphonia or Tales of Vesperia (with some mention of Destiny, Phantasia and Abyss between). Tales of Symphonia 2 or Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World is just a spin-off sequel to Tales of Symphonia and it hasn't been mentioned for some time in this thread actualy ^^
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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by Benevolent_Ghaleon »

Kizyr wrote:What's been going on for the past 2 pages of posts?!

No really, this is all a ton of stuff about a series I don't know much about (I only played Tales of Phantasia--which is my favorite game outside of the Lunar series, mind you, but still my only exposure to the Tales series). So I can't really follow what the deal is.

Are y'all discussing (or arguing?) about whether or not ToS2 has aged well (graphics-wise or story-wise), the quality of the story, both of the above, etc.? KF
You screwed up by not playing Tales Of Symphonia. Since you can read Japanese, get the game on PS2 as it has more cutscenes. If you don't feel like going through the trouble, play it on Gamecube. It's truly great.

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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by Lunar Eclipse »

Sonix wrote:They are arguing (or discussing?; see what I did there, lol) about which one is better, Tales of Symphonia or Tales of Vesperia (with some mention of Destiny, Phantasia and Abyss between). Tales of Symphonia 2 or Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World is just a spin-off sequel to Tales of Symphonia and it hasn't been mentioned for some time in this thread actualy ^^
That's not really what I'm trying to argue at all. I'm just trying to point out that you can't say, "Symphonia's the best game in the series because it has the highest North American review scores." Review scores are subject to temporal factors and console-specific criteria that make it so that different entries in a particular series released as far apart and on as wide a range of consoles as Tales can't be compared using review scores, especially since elements like graphics, sound, and gameplay are all major portions of a review that will be viewed very differently based on changing expectations.
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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by Kizyr »

Methinks we be sailin' in tha same ship, matey. Reviews be affected by such fickle things that ya can't compare 'em 'tween two games far apart any more 'n' ye can compare the Caribbean with tha Malacca Straits. They practically be on two differen' scales.

'Course, the "best" game in any case be what yer heart desires. If'n ye likes a tavern in Tortuga more 'n' a tavern in Trinidad, no way anyone can tells ye ye's wrong fer likin' what ye like. KF
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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by brightshield »

Sorry for my absence, I was in the hospital. I'm still not feeling so well, so I'll continue this convo when I'm better. I have been replaying Vesperia as well, so it'll be fresh in my mind for the debate. Still, I don't even mind if someone thinks that it's better than Symphonia. My main point was that Tos2 was a shameless cash in, and VASTLY inferior to the original in every possible way.

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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

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brightshield, sorry to hear you were in the hospital. I hope you feel better soon.

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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by Lunar Eclipse »

brightshield wrote:Still, I don't even mind if someone thinks that it's better than Symphonia.
And, as I said before, I don't mind it one bit if Symphonia's your favorite game in the series. The problem was that you were trying to pass Symphonia off as a game that was "clearly" the best in the series based solely on North American review scores and North American sales. If you're just saying that you think it's the best, I won't argue at all. However, if you say that it's generally agreed upon to be the best in the series, I'm going to contest that, because it's simply not the case. Five of the twelve entries in the series haven't even been localized here yet, so even if you were going to use review scores as your measuring stick, it's impossible to do with a series so neglected in our part of the world.
brightshield wrote:My main point was that Tos2 was a shameless cash in, and VASTLY inferior to the original in every possible way.
It's true that it was a fanservice game and, yes, a cash-in in that sense. However, Namco Bandai was far from "shameless" about it. In fact, they were incredibly upfront about it. They announced from the beginning that it was an escort title, and if you know much about the series, it's divided into two subsets, the first being the motherships and the second being the escorts. Main entries are called motherships, and there are only twelve. They include:

Tales of Phantasia
Tales of Destiny
Tales of Eternia
Tales of Destiny 2
Tales of Symphonia
Tales of Rebirth
Tales of Legendia
Tales of the Abyss
Tales of Innocence
Tales of Vesperia
Tales of Hearts
Tales of Graces

The escorts tend to be fanservice games that are spin-off sequels, crossovers, fan minigames, or original mobile games. These include:

Tales of Phantasia: Narikiri Dungeon (spin-off sequel)
Tales of Fandom: Volume 1 (fan minigame)
Tales of the World: Narikiri Dungeon 2 (crossover)
Tales of the World: Summoner's Lineage (spin-off sequel)
Tales of Mobile: Tales of Tactics (original mobile)
Tales of the World: Narikiri Dungeon 3 (crossover)
Tales of Mobile: Tales of Breaker (original mobile)
Tales of Mobile: Tales of Commons (original mobile)
Tales of Eternia Online (spin-off sequel)
Tales of Mobile: Tales of Wahrheit (original mobile)
Tales of the Tempest (original mobile)
Tales of the World: Radiant Mythology (crossover)
Tales of Fandom: Volume 2 (fan minigame)
Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World (spin-off sequel)
Tales of the World: Material Dungeon (original mobile)
Tales of the World: Radiant Mythology 2 (crossover)
Tales of VS. (crossover)

Anyway, Namco Bandai makes no secret of the fact that the escorts have different development teams and lower budgets. They also offer a very different gameplay experience from normal Tales titles, and Japanese players know that. People in North America can't really be expected to know because of the series' limited exposure, but Namco Bandai did mention in pretty much every single article published here about the game that it was a spin-off sequel with very different gameplay. They specifically said not to expect a Symphonia clone.

So, while you might not like the idea behind escorts and wish that they'd chosen to do a mothership sequel instead, there was nothing deceptive about it. They let us know exactly what it was going to be, and honestly, it's probably one of the best escorts out there. It's right up there with Radiant Mythology 2, at any rate.
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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by brightshield »

Not really, especially considering Wind Waker came out before it with what's usually considered to be better cel shading.

Yeah, but it's the only game on the system with superior cell shading. While there are Wii games with superior cell shading to Vesperia(and the Wii is a weaker system graphically than the 360). No More Heroes immediately comes to mind.


The difference is simply in the styling. Eternal Sonata's cel shading was meant to give a richer, more hand-painted feel. Vesperia's mimicked the slick, more uniformly colored style of anime, which was also pretty necessary if there was to be any continuity between the game itself and the anime FMVs.

I'm talking about the amount of detail rather than the art style.


Can't remember Lloyd's or Sheena's at all,

Really? They're two of the more overly used themes.

Lloyd

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9qD5EJ2ZCY


Sheena

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RPfTJbyJ ... re=related


Er, and the people voicing Vesperia are some of the biggest in the industry at this point too. It's just that they're the major players in the non-union circles, so their names aren't published often.

Please, many of them were crap. Especially the guy voicing Flynn. He's known to be bad. He single handedly destroyed the Yugioh dub, and was so bad in the Naruto dub that they replaced him. Most of the cast was a bunch of nobodies. Baker and Ruff were the only big names. The guy that voiced Duke was good, but didn't fit the character's appearance at all. Raven and Adecor always sounded extremely fake as well.


Plus, the casting is flawless.

You had me going until you said this. *looks at Duke, Raven, and Adecor*


Even Karol is spectacular in spite of the fact that most little boy characters end up sounding like little girls.

Karol sounds no more "manly" than Genis.


I still think Vesperia's puzzles were passable

It barely even had any puzzles. You could run right through most dungeons.


However, I'd disagree on the battles. They're notably better in Vesperia, and I'm not sure what lag you're talking about unless you just mean that Yuri's startup is slower, which is just part of how he's designed as a fighter. If you play anyone other than Lloyd in Symphonia, you'll find they move much more slowly as well, Sheena aside. Also, Symphonia didn't zoom out for multiplayer, which was a horrid design choice, plus character that you weren't playing could free run and sidestep, making one wonder why the player character couldn't do so as well. Overall, it felt as though a lot was left out since you could see the remnants sitting around in other aspects of the gameplay. The battle system was just really rough around the edges, which is to be expected with their first foray into 3-D, but I really don't know how it can be argued to be better.

I main Kratos, not Lloyd. Vesperia has a noticable lag between the time you hit the button, and your character attacks. I agree that Abyss has a superior battle system, but the lag in Vesperia hurts it for me.


When you talk about all reviews, you by extension talk about every individual review as well, and, as I said, the overall average determines how good a game is perceived to be on that console and at that time. Find any Tales community that isn't GameCube/Symphonia-centric, ask what Tales game is the best, and you'll get a really wide variety of opinions. It's not going to be Symphonia, Symphonia, Symphonia.

It will still be Symphonia most of the time though. Just as it would be FF7 most of the time on a general FF board.


It's just that you apparently care more about particular names.

Yeah, the names that are big for a reason...


Admittedly, they're paying less now because they've got non-union instead of union, but that doesn't diminish the quality since a lot of famous actors (Clarke included) will go non-union to pile on more work.

It destroyed the quality of Symphonia 2's voice work. All of the great actors(other than Cam) have been replaced.

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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by brightshield »

brightshield, sorry to hear you were in the hospital. I hope you feel better soon.

Thanks, I feel better now.


It's true that it was a fanservice game and, yes, a cash-in in that sense. However, Namco Bandai was far from "shameless" about it. In fact, they were incredibly upfront about it. They announced from the beginning that it was an escort title, and if you know much about the series, it's divided into two subsets, the first being the motherships and the second being the escorts. Main entries are called motherships, and there are only twelve. They include:

Tales of Phantasia
Tales of Destiny
Tales of Eternia
Tales of Destiny 2
Tales of Symphonia
Tales of Rebirth
Tales of Legendia
Tales of the Abyss
Tales of Innocence
Tales of Vesperia
Tales of Hearts
Tales of Graces

The escorts tend to be fanservice games that are spin-off sequels, crossovers, fan minigames, or original mobile games. These include:

Tales of Phantasia: Narikiri Dungeon (spin-off sequel)
Tales of Fandom: Volume 1 (fan minigame)
Tales of the World: Narikiri Dungeon 2 (crossover)
Tales of the World: Summoner's Lineage (spin-off sequel)
Tales of Mobile: Tales of Tactics (original mobile)
Tales of the World: Narikiri Dungeon 3 (crossover)
Tales of Mobile: Tales of Breaker (original mobile)
Tales of Mobile: Tales of Commons (original mobile)
Tales of Eternia Online (spin-off sequel)
Tales of Mobile: Tales of Wahrheit (original mobile)
Tales of the Tempest (original mobile)
Tales of the World: Radiant Mythology (crossover)
Tales of Fandom: Volume 2 (fan minigame)
Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World (spin-off sequel)
Tales of the World: Material Dungeon (original mobile)
Tales of the World: Radiant Mythology 2 (crossover)
Tales of VS. (crossover)

Anyway, Namco Bandai makes no secret of the fact that the escorts have different development teams and lower budgets. They also offer a very different gameplay experience from normal Tales titles, and Japanese players know that. People in North America can't really be expected to know because of the series' limited exposure, but Namco Bandai did mention in pretty much every single article published here about the game that it was a spin-off sequel with very different gameplay. They specifically said not to expect a Symphonia clone.

So, while you might not like the idea behind escorts and wish that they'd chosen to do a mothership sequel instead, there was nothing deceptive about it. They let us know exactly what it was going to be, and honestly, it's probably one of the best escorts out there. It's right up there with Radiant Mythology 2, at any rate.


Okay, but what does all this prove? Namco themselves are basically saying that the mothership games are a lot better as they put more effort into them. Therefore, my initial point stands; it's ridiculous to say that Symphonia 2 is superior to the original.

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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by Lunar Eclipse »

brightshield wrote:Not really, especially considering Wind Waker came out before it with what's usually considered to be better cel shading.

Yeah, but it's the only game on the system with superior cell shading. While there are Wii games with superior cell shading to Vesperia(and the Wii is a weaker system graphically than the 360). No More Heroes immediately comes to mind.
Please. Symphonia's shading is horrid and blocky with fat black outlines around every character. The out-of-battle character animations are lazy and repetitive as well (i.e. there's only one animation per action that gets repeated, like Genis' hand bobbing every time he opens his mouth). Rogue Galaxy on the less powerful PS2 looks better.
brightshield wrote:Please, many of them were crap. Especially the guy voicing Flynn. He's known to be bad. He single handedly destroyed the Yugioh dub, and was so bad in the Naruto dub that they replaced him. Most of the cast was a bunch of nobodies. Baker and Ruff were the only big names. The guy that voiced Duke was good, but didn't fit the character's appearance at all. Raven and Adecor always sounded extremely fake as well.
The reason the non-unions aren't well known is because their names can't be published along with non-union projects, thus fans are left to speculate who's who. It doesn't mean that they're less talented just because they don't have the luxury of being credited. Also, Raven's voice actor is quite famous. He's more prolific than Baker, at any rate.
brightshield wrote:You had me going until you said this. *looks at Duke, Raven, and Adecor*
Er, Adecor and Boccos are joke characters, so their voices are supposed to be silly, not to mention that they have maybe four scenes in the whole game with voiced dialogue. Duke is deep, but he's pretty deep in Japanese too. There's nothing actually wrong with the acting. Raven is amazing, so I'm not quite sure what the complaint is here.
brightshield wrote:Karol sounds no more "manly" than Genis.
Sure sounds a lot less whiny, though.
brightshield wrote:I main Kratos, not Lloyd. Vesperia has a noticable lag between the time you hit the button, and your character attacks. I agree that Abyss has a superior battle system, but the lag in Vesperia hurts it for me.
Regardless, complaining about different timing for attacks is silly as it's not actually a glaring technical issue like some of the things in Symphonia (i.e. the camera not panning out for multiplayer). You can dislike the way that the new character movements result in "lag" all you want, but it's not really a problem since the battles are designed around it. It's just an intentional break in attack execution so that you can't do silly things like infinite with glitched spell cancel like you could in Symphonia.
brightshield wrote:When you talk about all reviews, you by extension talk about every individual review as well, and, as I said, the overall average determines how good a game is perceived to be on that console and at that time. Find any Tales community that isn't GameCube/Symphonia-centric, ask what Tales game is the best, and you'll get a really wide variety of opinions. It's not going to be Symphonia, Symphonia, Symphonia.

It will still be Symphonia most of the time though. Just as it would be FF7 most of the time on a general FF board.
No, it won't. Click here to see the results of the poll at Namco Bandai's North American Tales forum, which was created for Symphonia and still doesn't have Symphonia winning. Abyss is beating it. Plus, if you read, the poll was created a month or so before Vesperia's release and Vesperia's still holding out quite well in spite of it (about 6 of the 13 pages of posts are pre-Vesperia). If you go to a site where people actually have an interest in the unlocalized titles, you'll find results even more skewed than that.
brightshield wrote:Yeah, the names that are big for a reason...
I agree that they're big names for a reason, but again, that doesn't make the non-unions worse just because they can't get their names out there as easily any longer.
brightshield wrote:It destroyed the quality of Symphonia 2's voice work. All of the great actors(other than Cam) have been replaced.
Heather Hogan returned as well. But really, it wasn't destroyed. It was still done well, just with different people. You're letting your memory of the old VAs get in the way of objectively evaluating the ones used in Dawn. Even Brian Beacock, who everyone sits around and hates on, did a nice job. It's just that Scott Menville's voice is really distinctive and pretty irreplaceable. Some of the actors even did a better job, in my opinion. As good as Kari Wahlgren is, her relical mode for Raine was completely devoid of the fervor it needed. Her replacement did a much better job in that department.
brightshield wrote:Okay, but what does all this prove? Namco themselves are basically saying that the mothership games are a lot better as they put more effort into them. Therefore, my initial point stands; it's ridiculous to say that Symphonia 2 is superior to the original.
They're saying they put more money behind the motherships. It doesn't mean that we can't still appreciate the story or characters of an escort more than any given mothership or even enjoy the new gameplay tropes they develop. That's like saying that I can't possibly like Lunar more than Grandia because Grandia had a bigger budget (not sure if that's true, just an example). The developers work within their budget to create what they want. It doesn't mean it can't still be fun or resonate more deeply with someone than the original, plus there's the fact that Symphonia 2 actually required far less development time because it reused Abyss' system and environment skins from the original Symphonia whereas Symphonia had to be built from the ground up as the first 3-D Tales title.

At any rate, I can't really say that I wish to continue arguing Vesperia's merits or Symphonia's flaws as that wasn't my initial point at all and it just gets petty/comes down to opinions after a while. I just wanted to say that you were mistaken in saying that Symphonia was undeniably the best Tales game, which is something that you still won't concede or just choose to evade. Not sure which. You can bring up why you favor Symphonia all you like, but Symphonia being the "best" is personal preference, not fact.
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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by brightshield »

Rogue Galaxy on the less powerful PS2 looks better.

Hmm... been a while since I've played that. It came out at least a year after Symphonia though. No More Heroes came out a year before Vesperia.


The reason the non-unions aren't well known is because their names can't be published along with non-union projects, thus fans are left to speculate who's who. It doesn't mean that they're less talented just because they don't have the luxury of being credited.

I don't hate on them because they're not in a union. The VAs I consider crappy just happen to be non union. Sam Regal is one of the worst I've ever heard, but I also can't stand Johnny Yong Bosch and he might be a union guy. Scott Roberts also comes to mind as being particularly bad.


Also, Raven's voice actor is quite famous. He's more prolific than Baker, at any rate.

...

Are you positive that you're not confusing him for someone else? He's in very few things from what I've seen.


Er, Adecor and Boccos are joke characters, so their voices are supposed to be silly, not to mention that they have maybe four scenes in the whole game with voiced dialogue.

Unfortunately, they've got more scenes than that.


Duke is deep, but he's pretty deep in Japanese too.

To be fair, he really didn't fit in either version.


There's nothing actually wrong with the acting.

For Duke the only problem was that he didn't fit. Why the guy that played Kato in Shadow Hearts 2 was chosen to play Duke, is still a mystery to me.


Raven is amazing, so I'm not quite sure what the complaint is here.

He sounds completely fake.


Sure sounds a lot less whiny, though.

Maybe.


Regardless, complaining about different timing for attacks is silly as it's not actually a glaring technical issue

This isn't about the timing of attacks. When I hit the attack button in Vesperia, my character attacks a fraction of a second later. In Symphonia and Abyss it's instantaneous.


No, it won't. Click here to see the results of the poll at Namco Bandai's North American Tales forum, which was created for Symphonia and still doesn't have Symphonia winning. Abyss is beating it. Plus, if you read, the poll was created a month or so before Vesperia's release and Vesperia's still holding out quite well in spite of it (about 6 of the 13 pages of posts are pre-Vesperia). If you go to a site where people actually have an interest in the unlocalized titles, you'll find results even more skewed than that.

Just one poll means nothing(unless thousands voted). FF7 loses to FF6 sometimes as well, when dealing with smaller groups of people.


Heather Hogan returned as well.

She sounded weird though.


But really, it wasn't destroyed. It was still done well, just with different people.

lol, you're kidding me.


Even Brian Beacock, who everyone sits around and hates on, did a nice job. It's just that Scott Menville's voice is really distinctive and pretty irreplaceable.

I can agree to that. Brian wasn't bad, it's just that Scott was the perfect Lloyd. So Brian was still a huge downgrade.


Some of the actors even did a better job, in my opinion. As good as Kari Wahlgren is, her relical mode for Raine was completely devoid of the fervor it needed. Her replacement did a much better job in that department.

Her replacement is talentless and can only voice smart, serious women. She's a one trick pony, and I find it wrong to even mention her in the same sentence as one of the big four voice actresses(Kari Wahlgren, Jennifer Hale, Michelle Ruff, and Wendee Lee).


They're saying they put more money behind the motherships.

Money, time, effort... you know the three things that make a game good...


That's like saying that I can't possibly like Lunar more than Grandia because Grandia had a bigger budget (not sure if that's true, just an example).

It's more like saying you can't possibly like Dragon Song more than Lunar...


I just wanted to say that you were mistaken in saying that Symphonia was undeniably the best Tales game, which is something that you still won't concede or just choose to evade. Not sure which. You can bring up why you favor Symphonia all you like, but Symphonia being the "best" is personal preference, not fact.

Fair enough, but Symphonia is still vastly superior to it's sequel. That was always my main point. Denying it as better is as foolish as saying Dirge of Cerberus > FF7. The review scores are pretty vast in this case as well. Symphonia 2 has around a 67/100 average.

Also, after replaying Vesperia I'd definitely say that the story was average at best. There are a few really amazing parts, but the whole thing just lacks any sense of direction. That's why I like games like Symphonia, FF7, and Lunar 2 more. In these games you always know where you're going and what your exact goal is. Then again perhaps I was being too harsh on Vesperia since I was playing Silent Hill 2 at the same time, and that game has a deeper plot than any other game.

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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

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brightshield wrote:I don't hate on them because they're not in a union. The VAs I consider crappy just happen to be non union. Sam Regal is one of the worst I've ever heard, but I also can't stand Johnny Yong Bosch and he might be a union guy. Scott Roberts also comes to mind as being particularly bad.

[insert various other comments about VAs, etc.]
As much as you might personally dislike them, they're popular, and they're probably somewhat popular for a reason. I don't much like Bosch either, but it's not like he's bad. He just sounds very samey most of the time. Of course, the same can be said of Cam Clarke. You can always pick out his voice in a crowd. I also had no problems with Riegel in Vesperia aside from the sort of funky line he has in the prologue, though all the characters had some awkwardness during the FMVs, which I assume were voiced first or something.
brightshield wrote:This isn't about the timing of attacks. When I hit the attack button in Vesperia, my character attacks a fraction of a second later. In Symphonia and Abyss it's instantaneous.
Can't say I ever noticed this, and I've never heard it brought up anywhere else even though I spend the majority of my time on Tales-centric forums. I really think you're making a mountain out of a molehill, and a molehill that no one else I've talked to has even seen to boot.
brightshield wrote:Just one poll means nothing(unless thousands voted). FF7 loses to FF6 sometimes as well, when dealing with smaller groups of people.
Regardless of the poll size, there's not a larger Tales community out there, so I'm not sure how you're supposed to be supporting your argument to the contrary. Please, find a poll with conflicting results that's not on a Symphonia/Nintendo-specific forum.
brightshield wrote:Money, time, effort... you know the three things that make a game good...
Again, I'm not saying that the product is necessarily of the same quality. It's clearly not. However, you can't just write off the characters or the story as a result. Those're aspects not greatly influenced by the project's budget, so if someone likes it more, deal with it and stop saying, "You can't like X game better."
brightshield wrote:Fair enough, but Symphonia is still vastly superior to it's sequel. That was always my main point. Denying it as better is as foolish as saying Dirge of Cerberus > FF7. The review scores are pretty vast in this case as well. Symphonia 2 has around a 67/100 average.
Fine. Say it's technically better or a more polished game or whatever. We all accept that. It's the same for me with Legendia. I accept that it has numerous gameplay flaws, but I still like the characters and story the best, and that makes it my favorite game in the series. My only complaint is that you started spouting stuff about how Symphonia got the best scores and thus is the best and that we should all simply accept that and that you can't understand how we could possibly like Dawn more, etc. It's all about personal preference and resonance with characters and story, not budget or game length or whatever unless the game is somehow downright unplayable.
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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

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I don't much like Bosch either, but it's not like he's bad.

He's been known as a poor actor ever since his Power Ranger days.


He just sounds very samey most of the time.

Even when the characters look and act very different. Hell, Emil was the first time I've seen him try to change his voice, and it sounded extremely fake. He also has an awkward way of speaking.


Of course, the same can be said of Cam Clarke. You can always pick out his voice in a crowd.

Cam can at least change his voice to fit whatever character he's playing though. Ryudo, Kratos, and Liquid Snake all sound different. Ryudo sounds like a teenager, Kratos like an adult, and Liquid uses an accent.


I also had no problems with Riegel in Vesperia aside from the sort of funky line he has in the prologue, though all the characters had some awkwardness during the FMVs, which I assume were voiced first or something.

It was one of his better performances, but that's not saying much.


Can't say I ever noticed this, and I've never heard it brought up anywhere else even though I spend the majority of my time on Tales-centric forums. I really think you're making a mountain out of a molehill, and a molehill that no one else I've talked to has even seen to boot.

People were complaining about it a lot on Gamefaqs, back when the game first came out.


Regardless of the poll size, there's not a larger Tales community out there, so I'm not sure how you're supposed to be supporting your argument to the contrary.

I'd use normal RPG fans, not people that obsess over the series.


Please, find a poll with conflicting results that's not on a Symphonia/Nintendo-specific forum.

I"ll try, but that might take some time.


Again, I'm not saying that the product is necessarily of the same quality. It's clearly not. However, you can't just write off the characters or the story as a result. Those're aspects not greatly influenced by the project's budget, so if someone likes it more, deal with it and stop saying, "You can't like X game better."

You can like whatever game you want, but certain games are better than others. Dark Fairy said that Symphonia can't even compare to the other games in the series. That was just wrong, so I was pointing out the extreme bias. Then you jumped in and here we are.


Fine. Say it's technically better or a more polished game or whatever. We all accept that. It's the same for me with Legendia. I accept that it has numerous gameplay flaws, but I still like the characters and story the best, and that makes it my favorite game in the series. My only complaint is that you started spouting stuff about how Symphonia got the best scores and thus is the best and that we should all simply accept that and that you can't understand how we could possibly like Dawn more, etc. It's all about personal preference and resonance with characters and story, not budget or game length or whatever unless the game is somehow downright unplayable.

I think you misunderstand me. I don't care if someone likes a poorly made game over a perfectly crafted game. I just have a problem with someone saying that the extremely flawed game is superior to the better made game.

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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

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brightshield wrote:People were complaining about it a lot on Gamefaqs, back when the game first came out.
I was around GameFAQs when it was first released. I only ever saw people complain of his relative slowness, not of actual button-to-ingame-reaction lag.
brightshield wrote:I'd use normal RPG fans, not people that obsess over the series.
Then you won't be able to find people who've played much beyond Symphonia, Abyss, Vesperia, Legendia, and maybe Destiny or Eternia if you're lucky. No one outside of the fandom is going to bother with much of the series considering you have to import just about everything.
brightshield wrote:You can like whatever game you want, but certain games are better than others. Dark Fairy said that Symphonia can't even compare to the other games in the series. That was just wrong, so I was pointing out the extreme bias. Then you jumped in and here we are.
The problem is that you reacted to the exact opposite extreme and said that no other game in the series can compare to Symphonia, which also isn't the case. And here we are.
brightshield wrote:I think you misunderstand me. I don't care if someone likes a poorly made game over a perfectly crafted game. I just have a problem with someone saying that the extremely flawed game is superior to the better made game.
I don't misunderstand at all. This statement alone is enough to bother me. First, Dawn of the New World isn't poorly crafted. There are one or two things in the system I'd change, but that doesn't make it a bad game. It just doesn't have the same game flow as a mothership title. Second, Symphonia's not perfectly crafted. Put it on a pedestal all you like, but there are just as many issues with it as there are with just about every other game in the series.
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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

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I was around GameFAQs when it was first released. I only ever saw people complain of his relative slowness, not of actual button-to-ingame-reaction lag.

It was both things.


Then you won't be able to find people who've played much beyond Symphonia, Abyss, Vesperia, Legendia, and maybe Destiny or Eternia if you're lucky.

All of the fan favorites are available here, so the results should be accurate enough.


No one outside of the fandom is going to bother with much of the series considering you have to import just about everything.

Yeah, but I wouldn't consider these people credible. They hype the entire series up like it's super amazing or something...


The problem is that you reacted to the exact opposite extreme and said that no other game in the series can compare to Symphonia, which also isn't the case. And here we are.

I originally said that it was "clearly one of the better games in the series". After that I got really into the debate, and said some things just to counter all the hate.


First, Dawn of the New World isn't poorly crafted.

Most pro reviewers would like to have a word with you...


Second, Symphonia's not perfectly crafted. Put it on a pedestal all you like, but there are just as many issues with it as there are with just about every other game in the series.

That was just an example. Perfectly crafted game wasn't taking the place of Symphonia. I wouldn't call any game perfect; I was exaggerating to give my point more emphasis.

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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Post by Lunar Eclipse »

brightshield wrote:All of the fan favorites are available here, so the results should be accurate enough.
Uh, no. No, they're not. Rebirth and Destiny Remake are considered the best representatives of Team Destiny, and we've never gotten them. We just have everything from Team Symphonia and Team Melfes. A lot of people prefer Team Destiny to the other two.
brightshield wrote:Yeah, but I wouldn't consider these people credible. They hype the entire series up like it's super amazing or something...
How are they not credible within the confines of the series? If they're only voting on Tales games, then they're not biased because of the series preference. It's not like they're voting on Tales versus Final Fantasy or something, in which case you'd actually have a point. As it is, the "hype" is inconsequential when only Tales titles are being judged.
brightshield wrote:I originally said that it was "clearly one of the better games in the series". After that I got really into the debate, and said some things just to counter all the hate.
I concede that you were initially more reasonable about it, but I don't think it excuses your later intolerance of other points of view that didn't bow at the altar of Symphonia. But as long as "one of the better" is your true point of view, I don't mind at all.
brightshield wrote:First, Dawn of the New World isn't poorly crafted.

Most pro reviewers would like to have a word with you...
Most of the ones I've read complain about the story and characters, like you. If someone likes the story and characters, that's their prerogative. The gameplay itself is at the very worst passable. There's nothing inherently wrong with point-and-click maps, linear storytelling, etc. I've enjoyed many games with similar systems.
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Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

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Uh, no. No, they're not. Rebirth and Destiny Remake are considered the best representatives of Team Destiny, and we've never gotten them. We just have everything from Team Symphonia and Team Melfes. A lot of people prefer Team Destiny to the other two.

You may have a point with Rebirth, but not so much Destiny. Even though I love Destiny, it had it's shot in the states and got poor sales and only a 76/100 review average. The PS2 remake would most likely score around the same as the vast majority of remakes score around the same or lower. That would already turn away a lot of general RPG fans, as people tend to view games in the 7 range as average.

By the way, which games did each team make?


How are they not credible within the confines of the series?

They're still fanboys dude. I don't take fanboys seriously, even when discussing their favorite series. They still use extreme bias to put their favorite game on top. Just look back at my FF6 vs. FF7 example where they bashed Sephiroth, while severely over hyping Kefka. Going with hardcore fanboys is never a good idea.


I concede that you were initially more reasonable about it, but I don't think it excuses your later intolerance of other points of view that didn't bow at the altar of Symphonia. But as long as "one of the better" is your true point of view, I don't mind at all.

Like I said, I got into the debate and started getting tired of the extreme bias against Symphonia.


Most of the ones I've read complain about the story and characters, like you. If someone likes the story and characters, that's their prerogative.

The story and characters are highly flawed though. Not to mention that the game ret-cons some things(which is the sign of a poor writer). I also don't agree with your view that how good a story is, comes down to preference. Take Eternal Sonata for example. I started replaying the game on the PS3. I'm liking it A LOt now. I fricking love Crescendo, Jazz, Frederick, Viola, and Serenade. However, the plot is still pure garbage. It does make more sense now with the new scenes, but it's still 95% filler. Having 95% of the plot not even matter is an objective flaw, no matter how you look at it. I'm starting to love the game now, but even I would give it low marks in story. Not that any of the Tales games go to that extreme(Abyss drags on for an extremely long time though), but you get my point. It is possible for one story to be objectively better than another.


The gameplay itself is at the very worst passable.

Yeah, like 6/10 passable...


There's nothing inherently wrong with point-and-click maps, linear storytelling, etc. I've enjoyed many games with similar systems.

Grandia and Shadow Hearts are great and they use these things. It came across as lazy in Symphonia 2 though, as the Tales series uses a world map. The story was also just an obvious add on, and would have worked better as a stand alone game rather than a direct sequel. It wasn't planned out, and ruined the integrity of Symphonia's story with it's obvious ret-cons...

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