Cheating

[Dark_Fairy]

Yeah, this is sort of a rant. I'm just really pestered and need to post this somewhere. I figured, why not here since this is about the only place I come to nowadays anyway? Plus, you guys always have interesting comments about things and I'm curious of your opinions.

Ok, so the other day I was talking to my nephew about Pokemon. I still love the games, so I still work on Pokemon Diamond. I work hard with my Pokemon. All of them are 100% legit (non-hack/cheated) Pokemon. This week at Toys 'r Us they are giving away Shaymin. Naturally, I was excited to get the legendary Pokemon, even though I felt really stupid being an 18 year old going into Toys 'r Us. So, I called up my nephews to tell them about the event. My oldest nephew had already been hacking Pokemon before (shame on him!). My youngest nephew picked up and I told him about it. He said "Yeah, I already have it." I asked if he already went to the event. He said "No, I just used action replay." I figured he would want a legit one, but he said "No". Then I felt angry because, first of all, I had to go out of town to get it. They live in that town and it's REALLY close to their house. Second of all, they hacked other Pokemon. They told me about it. I work hard with my Pokemon and they get them easy. I asked him if he felt guilty at all, since I always never feel right doing that sort of thing. He said, "No, this is me we're talking about. I cheat all the time. Heck, I'm cheating right now. I have unlimited ammo in the game I'm playing, Commando 2." I feel proud of myself when I work really hard to get a Pokemon and he just doesn't give a care.

Maybe it's just me, but I just can't cheat. I mean, if it's a game I've already beat, then I'll go back and have fun with it. I just can't ever cheat on a game to beat it the first time around. It doesn't feel like I accomplished anything or even enjoyed the game to its fullest. Pokemon is in a whole other catagory anyway, since Pokemon can technically never be beaten. You can always challenge friends, so you can't really cheat (even though people do, shame on them).

Just yesterday, I was playing Castlevania Dracula X Chronicles for the PSP. I had stopped really working on it after I got Symphony of the Night unlocked, but yesterday I really wanted to unlock Rondo of Blood. I got really frustrated playing Dracula X Chronicles and I still couldn't get Rondo of Blood. I was at the point where I finally downloaded a save file off the internet with Rondo unlocked. Just when I was about to put it on my PSP, I just couldn't do it. I wanted to unlock it MYSELF. So, after I post this, I'm going back to try it again. I will eventually do it, I don't need some stupid save file. I want to feel proud while playing Rondo of Blood. It just doesn't feel right playing something you didn't do yourself.

So, anyway, the point of this topic is cheating. It seems like the younger generation of kids just don't like to play games the way they were meant to be played. I mean, even I like to goof around once I've BEATEN the game, but they just take all the fun out of games. As a youngster, I grew up on NES and SNES games. I was even playing games before I could talk, lol (I blame my dad). Back in those days, you didn't cheat. You worked hard on the game you were playing and enjoyed your accomplishment. At least I thought so.

I thought my friend, who was a year younger than me would understand, but he agreed with my nephew. I wanted to slam my head into the wall! Then again, he started with N64 games. So did my nephews. I've noticed a trend in those people. It seems like most of the people who started with anything after the SNES/GEN era tend to not care if they cheat or not. Now, I know not all of them are like that, but most of them are. It just really frustrates me that kids don't even try anymore! What is the point of playing a game if you're going to cheat your way through it! Ugh!

So, what's your guy's opinions? I would hope I'm not the only one who feels this way. o_o

[localflick]

First off I pre-ordered Dracula X Chronicles for the sole purpose of playing the Original Rondo and was really miffed that it had to be unlocked, and even more miffed that it was at least two weeks before someone posted the path to the single candle in the game that unlocked it, so I share your frustration there.

And as far as cheating goes, I think it depends on the individual. At it's best cheating is a way to get more out of a product you've purchased, and at it's worst it does the exact opposite, so I think your intentions and expectations play a big part of whether cheating is good or not. If you want a sense of accomplishment, and to feel like you've earned everything you've unlocked, then don't cheat.

It has practical applications too... I was one of the kids that would use Game Genie to add a handicap to games I've beaten for extra challenge. Cheating works both ways.

I'm also considering investing in an Action Replay because I am absolutely stuck in Persona 3. I'm over 50 hours in the game and came across a boss that completely stomped me (that *$%# Sleeping Table). So I did a leveling grind for two hours and it still stomped me. None of the random battles give me any trouble, I have the best equipment, and despite the strategy guide, gamefaqs, youtube, and every other online resource I've checked, there is no trick, it's just a really really hard boss. So my game which I enjoyed for 50 hours is no longer enjoyable until I find a way to get past this thing and cheating may do it.

It's also great for people who want to enjoy an RPG's story line without having to worry about fighting. There was a thread here a while ago about cheating to get through Lunar Dragon Song and I think that's a great idea. I want the story, but really don't like the battles, so for me, cheating seems like a good option with Lunar DS. But with other games like Fire Emblem I like the story, but also really like the fighting and strategy, so cheating would take away from the experience.

It's all about what would make your experience better.

[Alunissage]

It's definitely not my thing. I can't even get myself to look in a guide most of the time (I capitulate if my husband is also playing, since he's generally both more easily frustrated and less resistant to the concept of getting help than I am), so cheating just seems bizarre.

I remember talking to a kid in a bookstore some years ago about Ocarina of Time, and he told us that he'd actually gotten himself permanently stuck in the game. At first we were really surprised, since generally Zelda games aren't like that (barring bugs like the one in Link's Awakening), but then he told us that he'd used a cheat in the Water Temple, and, well, that screwed something up. So it was definitely self-inflicted. We advised that he not use cheats if he wants the game to actually work, but I have no idea if it sunk in.

I can understand using a cheat to unlock a bonus if that's what you got the game for, e.g. Rondo of Blood. I might feel that way about something that required reflexes/coordination I simply don't have. When I've played Ocarina of Time myself, I've usually asked my sister to do the high-score horseback archery (for the quiver) since I have such a hard time with that that it takes me hours just to get the piece of heart.

It's totally annoying and infuriating when people get stuff the lazy way instead of doing the actual work (as opposed to at least trying to do it). I hate that the code for the Lords of Lunar minigame in SSSC is posted instead of people finding it themselves in the game, even though I know why that sort of thing IS posted. It's kind of the flip side of ridiculously obscure tasks put in some games just to make you buy the guides to find them... the example I remember best of this is in Legend of Legaia where in order to get some sort of special equipment or item you need to fish for 100,000 points, when the top item on the points/prize menu is 10,000 points or something like that (so there is no suggestion at all that there's any point in fishing after that). That one I think is the game cheating.

[Sonic#]

First, Dark_Fairy: I appreciate the language you're using (legit v. cheating) and all of that, and I honor the value, but one important goal of a game is to have fun. To enjoy it. Just on a pure surface level, if your nephews enjoy a game by changing the constraints or eliminating them altogether, that's fine. If you enjoy it by collecting within the constraints of the game, that's fine too. They aren't superior for cheating, and you're not superior for playing legitimately; so long as they don't represent their gains as legitimate, there's nothing wrong.

From your perspective, I understand being irked at cheating. It feels like, compared to playing legitimately, cheaters just get special items/advancements/endings with less effort. It feels like they don't deserve it. For a while I would grouch at my little brother when he would try to cheat. "Do you really feel like you earn the victory?" I'd ask, along with more jerkish questions. I was looking at the game as a challenge which happens to be fun, rather than something fun that may or may not have difficulty.

But I was wrong. Your comparison between the younger generations and the older ones doesn't hold weight with me. I was 10. Games weren't that easy for me. I'd cheat with my friends (using a Game Genie back then), I'd cheat alone. I'd cheat before I beat games and beat them legitimately after I'd cheated (Sonic 2, Golden Axe 2), I'd cheat after I couldn't beat a game for a long while (Ecco the Dolphin, X-Men), I'd cheat just because I could (Vectorman, NBA Jam). For many of the games, I would just use the built in codes. Sometimes it was fun just to play a level I couldn't get to otherwise. Sometimes it was fun just to play the game a different way. I was exploring the game beyond the rules in which it was constructed. Sometimes, I even invented constraints. (Sonic 2 in space jump mode isn't as easy as it sounds.) And I had fun, which is the first thing that should matter.

I still get tempted to cheat sometimes. I've hit the same spot in Persona 3 just about, localflick - a level wall. I'll level up slowly, but in that case cheating would really be more fun; I want to see the rest of the game, rather than go up the same generated dungeons several times. As localflick says, the experience should be emphasized. And as Alunissage implies in her last paragraph, I ought to be able to determine when the game is cheating me out of that experience.

But as far as your original question, you can value legitimate gameplay, and many do, but cheating isn't necessarily in the face of legitimate gameplay. So I understand why you take offense, but I wouldn't worry. Your accomplishment is no less than theirs, and I hope your fun is equal.

[Blue_Sycro]

I wouldn't let it eat you up too much. Ultimately, they are just games. I see your frustration in earning all your stats legitimately versus some kid just hacking their way to the top, but like Sonic said, it's primarily about fun. You seem to enjoy earning things in games the legit way, and that's cool. For someone who prefers to cheat, maybe the games are much more difficult for them, or maybe they just can't take it seriously enough to put in the hours.

Personally, I only use cheats if I'm seriously stuck somewhere, if I'm just trying to blow through a game (to collect treasures, or just finish a slow game, or whatever) and a lot of times just for fun. For example, unlimited ammo and enemies with terrible aim makes for great fun in Goldeneye 64. Unless you're in a competition or something, if using cheats helps someone enjoy the game more I don't think there's anything really wrong with it. Ultimately, it's about fun

[Dark_Fairy]

So, because quoting everything is going to take up way too much space, I'm going to simply address everyone by name.

localflick: Yeah, I had original gotten Chronicles for the purpose of both Rondo and a portable Symphony of the Night. Once I got Symphony though, I sort of never got back to trying to get Rondo. I did finally get Rondo last night! It was a lot easier to get than yesterday.

I know the pain of Persona 3. I haven't gotten back to it yet because I'm stuck on a boss in the Tarturus too. I remember how long it took me to beat the stupid Sleeping Tables too. If I could remember what I did, I would let you know. Sadly, I forgot. Now I can't seem to come up with anything to beat the bosses I'm stuck on (whose names slips my mind). Being on above level 60 apparently isn't good enough. I need better Persona I suppose. I still wouldn't cheat it, though. I'm just too stubborn to do that, lol.

You do have a point about cheating, if somebody can't enjoy the game any other way, I guess cheating is okay. It's just personally not my thing and bugs me to death if I do it.

Alunissage: I have to use guides sometimes, but I always try things myself first before resorting to a guide. Guides are usually my last option. I just never resort to things like Gameshark, Action Replay, etc.

Oh boy, Zelda. I'm so horrible at Zelda games, it's not even funny. I at least tried to do things myself until I got stuck. Then, we I had no idea what I was doing or couldn't get pass something, I would always call my "Zelda expert" friend up for her help. Zelda really grinds at my nerves, but it is fun.

Yeah, as long as people at least we try something first, I don't mind too much. It just makes me so angry when people don't even try first. D:

Sonic#: Wow. Your post was really enlightening. This is why I always like posting here, lol. You have a very excellent point. I guess if that's the way they do it, it's fine. I just don't personally like it. The point of playing a game is having fun. I guess their is no superior or inferior, it just frustrates me when people do something by cheating that I worked hard for.

Blue_Sycro: Yeah, I guess people do have to do what they need to do. I just don't like resorting to cheating

I have to go, or else I would had more to this. D:

[Nobiyuki77]

I'm not a cheater myself, but I will admit that if I'm thoroughly lost in a game I'll pull up a walkthrough, figure out where I'm going, and then put it away.

I'm not going to spend $15.00 for a guide when I only need it to redirect me once or twice.

[Kizyr]

http://www.ocremix.org/remix/OCR01149/

I traveled for too much time
to see you spend one more dime

on stupid strategy guides
when the answer wasn't inside

Just figure it out you dummy
then you wont have to spend 9.99

Anyway... I use strategy guides when it's a game I'm very unlikely to ever play through again. I've been doing that with Shining Force 3--I don't want to miss anything this time around, since it's uncertain if I'll have the chance to play it another time. I might do the same thing for Grandia, though I haven't decided yet. KF

[Werefrog]

Or... you could go to Gamefaqs and check out the guide there. I use guides too much. I'll admit to that. I mean... on some games there's absolutely no indicator as to where to go unless you find some obscure thingy. This happened to me in Dragon Quest IV. I deduced what I was supposed to do next, but I couldn't find the guy to tell me where to go next at all. It was really frustrating.

[localflick]

I remember talking to a kid in a bookstore some years ago about Ocarina of Time, and he told us that he'd actually gotten himself permanently stuck in the game. At first we were really surprised, since generally Zelda games aren't like that (barring bugs like the one in Link's Awakening),

I've just started playing Link's Awakening, and now I'm worried about getting stuck due to a glitch. Where is it, what causes it, and can I prevent it if possible?

One other note on the topic: the Devil May Cry games and God of War games address this issue very well. If you get a set number of game overs in DMC it will unlock easy mode which is a great way to not get stuck and enjoy a fairly difficult (for me anyway) game. I beat the first one on easy mode and the experience allowed me to play the rest of the series on normal and hard because I became better at it, and it was fun the whole way through even though I died a lot on the higher difficulties.

God of War I & II have something similar where you can switch to an easier difficulty level if you die several times consecutively allowing you to beat the game if you get to the more challenging areas at the end.

Both games have unlockable bonuses for anyone who can go through both on the highest difficulty, but they give players who aren't as skilled a way to still enjoy the product they purchased. If they're dedicated enough they can go up the difficulty levels until they can tackle God Mode or Dante Must Die mode (best difficulty level name ever), there was a Penny Arcade comic about how it's a little motivating, if not insulting when a game suggest you play on a lower difficulty level, and with some people it might be enough to tough it out instead of getting frustrated.

What a great solution: reward people who want want a sense of accomplishment and don't penalize people who just want to experience the story and aren't as skilled at combat.

The FES version of Persona 3 has an easy mode if I remember correctly, and I know 4 does, but the cool thing is that they make it a point to state that the difficulty level does not influence the story or ending in any way.

And one more quick thing: on the Rondo of Blood topic, the back of the box has Symphony of the Night and Rondo of Blood side by side without any place stating that you'd have to unlock 2 of the 3 games in the collection (and a little more after I beat it rescuing everyone which unlocked NOTHING and felt more like a chore than a fun game). If there was just an asterisk or some fine print stating that out of the box only 1 game would be available I'd have had different expectations and enjoy the game more. At the same time I wonder if it would affect sales if someone said "oooh Symphony - oh wait, you have to unlock it? Screw that" and not picked it up.

[Alunissage]

The Link's Awakening bug is in one of the last dungeons, Eagle's Nest. In it, you have to carry a ball around most of the dungeon. If you're hit by an enemy you drop it, and the game remembers where it is, even if you leave the dungeon and return. The bug is that there's one room (and I think it's the one right after the one where you first find the ball, or very close to it) where you can get hit and drop the ball and have it land on a piece of floor that's completely inaccessible. There's a hole, so Link gets hit and falls down the hole and the ball just kind of bounces across and then the next time you enter the room it's sitting on the two-pixel-wide edge of the hole next to the far wall, rather than the piece of floor you were standing on when you got hit. It's pretty much all over after that, because the ball will never leave that spot. I *think* that if you just reset immediately without saving you'll be OK, but you absolutely do not want to save after that happens or the game is unfinishable.

[localflick]

Thanks, I'll keep that in mind.

I'm kind of surprised that got past Nintendo though. I was under the impression that they had very thorough play testing, but things like that are bound to slip through I guess.

[Guild_Premier_Ghaleon]

Lmao, don't feel too bad. I'm twenty and I still play the pokemon games, though I just got back into them again recently, more for nostalgia than anything else. But, it's really fun, and I cant imagine deeming it a children's game exclusively when you consider all the complex equations you have to take into consideration when trying to breed the perfect pokemon. Ev Training, IV breeding, Natures, Item selection, all sorts of crazy variables that still manage to confuse me. Hell, for the hidden power TM, you have to have specific individual values to get a certain element. If you want ice, you'll need to breed your pokemon for hours if not days to get the ideal stats so that you can get that specific ability while having uber stats. It's a very complex game, and I love it. But I have to agree with you on the cheating. I breed my pokemon to get Individual Values, which takes forever. I'm breeding a Blissey right now and want perfect IV's in HP, DEF, and SP. DEF and so far it's taken me a week of pretty frequent playing. But, action replay people can just type in a code and get it right away. It's very frustrating.

[phyco126]

I'm 24, I still play pokemon. And Legos. =P

As for cheating, I don't care about it one way or the other. Most of the time when I cheat, its because I'm bored and getting a machine gun bazooka on RE2 makes for some great laughs.

Other times it is out of frustration. Like pokemon, I hate the idea that in order to get all the pokemon and game items I have to travel across the world, and in some cases time, so I can get them from special events. However, can't say I've cheated with Pokemon since the days of when I played Silver.

[Dark_Fairy]

Lmao, don't feel too bad. I'm twenty and I still play the pokemon games, though I just got back into them again recently, more for nostalgia than anything else. But, it's really fun, and I cant imagine deeming it a children's game exclusively when you consider all the complex equations you have to take into consideration when trying to breed the perfect pokemon. Ev Training, IV breeding, Natures, Item selection, all sorts of crazy variables that still manage to confuse me. Hell, for the hidden power TM, you have to have specific individual values to get a certain element. If you want ice, you'll need to breed your pokemon for hours if not days to get the ideal stats so that you can get that specific ability while having uber stats. It's a very complex game, and I love it. But I have to agree with you on the cheating. I breed my pokemon to get Individual Values, which takes forever. I'm breeding a Blissey right now and want perfect IV's in HP, DEF, and SP. DEF and so far it's taken me a week of pretty frequent playing. But, action replay people can just type in a code and get it right away. It's very frustrating.

Yeah, I know exactly what you mean. I can't tell you how many times I've soft reset my Pokemon Leaf Green just so I can get a shiny Charmander that also has good stats. It's really frustrating, since I still haven't even gotten a shiny Charmander yet. >_<;

Training all of my pokemon just right usually takes forever too, like you trying to get the perfect Blissey. I have very few lvl 100 Pokemon because of this, but I feel happy knowing I worked hard for them.

I have all of the Pokemon games compatible with trading over Pokemon to Diamond except for Emerald, Fire Red, and Pokemon XD (even though that requires GBA games first). I even borrowed Pokemon Coliseum from my nephews so I could get the Silver/Gold/Crystral starters from it, which I'm still working on that too because of how dang long it takes to purify the Pokemon. D:

Yeah, this is why people cheating with Pokemon frustrates me more than any other games that people cheat with. People like us work hard for our stuff while others just get it instantly.

I'm 24, I still play pokemon. And Legos. =P

As for cheating, I don't care about it one way or the other. Most of the time when I cheat, its because I'm bored and getting a machine gun bazooka on RE2 makes for some great laughs.

Other times it is out of frustration. Like pokemon, I hate the idea that in order to get all the pokemon and game items I have to travel across the world, and in some cases time, so I can get them from special events. However, can't say I've cheated with Pokemon since the days of when I played Silver.

Back during the days of Red/Blue/Yellow and Silver/Gold/Crystal, the events really weren't wide spread, so cheating was actually much more understandable. Now, the only reason I could find acceptable today is that some people may not to be able to afford the other games to get the rest of the Pokemon. Some people also don't live by any Toys 'r Us, so they can't get the event Pokemon. I find these reasons more acceptable than people who build really strong Pokemon with just a few codes. Those people REALLY frustrate me.

I'm also glad that I'm not the only person who isn't a kid still playing Pokemon. I feel 10 times better now.

[Asmodean]

I'm actually playin' Pokemon right now. And I can't friggin' catch Weezing! So pissed!

*Ahem*
My fiance got me into Pokemon originally. He was like... WHAT WOULD YOUR TEAM BE?!?!?!
I was like... uh... BULBASAUR!
He gave me a blank look after that...

So yea, I bought the Diamond version, since he has Pearl. So we could help each other with our Pokedexs. So long story short, I'm at the end of the game, I've managed to breed an Milotic with three perfect stats. And I did it all without a single cheat.
But now I'm at the point where I need to get more obscure Pokemon. Now granted Jesse has a few of the older games, my particular tactics require special move sets that I can only get from the Emerald Version I think. That implies me playin' an ALL new game and goin' through the tower and then breedin' on that version, and then puttin' on the proper moves. I'm sorry, but I draw the line there.

Needless to say, I'm goin' to do all the breedin' and everythin' else, but I'm goin' to put that one move on with some help.

So yea... I'm all about doin' the difficult stuff myself. I actually enjoy breedin', Jesse is goin' to do all the EV trainin'. So we make a good team when it comes to that. But for that one move, I'm goin' to use the Action Replay.

And just because, HERE'S MY TEAM!

Banette
Furret
Marowak
Bulbasaur
Milotic
Cacturn

I'm also goin' to have a TeddiUrsa and Sableye for variety.

UPDATE: After almost an hour, I finally caught a Weezing!

[Guild_Premier_Ghaleon]

Very nice. Yeah, I don't have any of the previous games either, but that's alright. I'm pretty satisfied with what I can get out of what I've got. Here's my current team:

Arcanine - Perfect Speed and Attack
Claydol - Perfect HP and DEF
Gengar - Perfect Speed and Sp. Attack
Venusaur - Perfect HP, Def, Sp. Def, High Sp. Att
Salamence - Perfect Speed and Attack
Porygon - Z - Perfect Speed and Sp. Attack

I'm going to work on breeding a team for each tier, UU, BL, and OU, so, still got a bit of work to do. I might try an Uber team later too, but I dont have the patience to try and catch legendarys with perfect natures and IV's since I play legit and have to take the time to actually catch them. Took me forever to get my Giratina. Sucked.

[Dark_Fairy]

I'm actually playin' Pokemon right now. And I can't friggin' catch Weezing! So pissed!

*Ahem*
My fiance got me into Pokemon originally. He was like... WHAT WOULD YOUR TEAM BE?!?!?!
I was like... uh... BULBASAUR!
He gave me a blank look after that...

So yea, I bought the Diamond version, since he has Pearl. So we could help each other with our Pokedexs. So long story short, I'm at the end of the game, I've managed to breed an Milotic with three perfect stats. And I did it all without a single cheat.
But now I'm at the point where I need to get more obscure Pokemon. Now granted Jesse has a few of the older games, my particular tactics require special move sets that I can only get from the Emerald Version I think. That implies me playin' an ALL new game and goin' through the tower and then breedin' on that version, and then puttin' on the proper moves. I'm sorry, but I draw the line there.

Needless to say, I'm goin' to do all the breedin' and everythin' else, but I'm goin' to put that one move on with some help.

So yea... I'm all about doin' the difficult stuff myself. I actually enjoy breedin', Jesse is goin' to do all the EV trainin'. So we make a good team when it comes to that. But for that one move, I'm goin' to use the Action Replay.

And just because, HERE'S MY TEAM!

Banette
Furret
Marowak
Bulbasaur
Milotic
Cacturn

I'm also goin' to have a TeddiUrsa and Sableye for variety.

UPDATE: After almost an hour, I finally caught a Weezing!

See, that sort of thing doesn't bug me as much as the people who make super abnormally strong Pokemon. A move or two is okay or something to that extent. I just see way too many people who abuse the Action Replays and it ticks me off SO much. >_<