Disappointed in the majority of gamers

[jay_are]

TL;DR:
Why did GTA V get made before Lunar 3, Final Fantasy 6 3D or MegaMan Legends 3?

Imagine you are looking at all the games you've played before. Imagine all the effort, time and money put into each of these games.
Including, but not limited to:
Super Mario, Metroid, Zelda, Castlevania, MegaMan, Dragon Quest, Final Fantasy, Chrono Trigger, Pokémon, Earthbound, Lunar...

Imagine you could combine the amount of effort put in most of these games,
and dedicate it to a new polished, perfected sequel for just 1 of these games or series, with a lot of great content that is faithful to the originals or better.

Which game would you rather see getting a sequel made that will become the best game ever made?
Apparently, the world has chosen none of the above, just Grand Theft Auto.
Is the world really full of gamers that would rather steal vehicles to run over people and crash into other cars or buildings, than having for example the next best RPG or Action platformer?
The only series of those I mentioned that does seem to get extreme attention is Pokémon, which makes me happy!
But even its fanbase is all about hacking the game to make overpowered Pokémon...

It's not justifiable AT ALL that we have gotten Grand Theft Auto V, when we haven't even gotten a 3D Final Fantasy 6 or Chrono Trigger for example. The next time I hear that some game can't be made due to "technical difficulties" or "didn't meet the expectations of the developer in terms of sales or quality" or "copyright issues" I'm gonna get REALLY MAD.

[TempestOne]

NT

[Sonic#]

So, I don't think that the making or success of GTA V is directly tied to the making or success of RPGs. First, the category of gamers who like GTA V (open world, storyline-based, player actions have repercussions primarily in world, actions not as limited and more amoral) substantially overlaps with gamers who like a good JRPG (range of worlds, storyline-based, player actions have repercussions primarily in the story, actions often limited to scope of game, what characters would do). Many gamers would buy both, indicating that publishing one would not exclude the other. Second, the companies involved in these genres are different. It's difficult to imagine Rockstar making a JRPG. The closest they come is perhaps the Red Dead series. Even if more people in the audience determined JRPG elements, Lunar would not be the result from this developer.

On the subject of its amorality, while I don't like Grand Theft Auto much either, people can distinguish fantasy amorality from real amorality, and the game is only as amoral in action as its player. It is entirely possible to play the game as an open game and pursue a standard of behavior that avoids any acts personally uncomfortable in a game setting. At the same time, the games' story writing is pretty good in developing relationships, even despite any potential objectionable content (violence, for example, or objectification of women) - the story has things of worth in it, even if I personally find them better elsewhere. Finally, I would insist that players are perfectly capable of playing or reading about amoral characters and being good people. (See Pirates! or Macbeth.) Because of this, I don't think it's fair to assume the people playing the game are depraved, even if it's not our cup of tea.

I would like to see more games in the genres I like. I love seeing new Sonic games, or JRPGs like Xenoblade Chronicles and The Last Story. I like attempts to do remakes, adaptations, or sequels, whether it's Wind Waker or Final Fantasy. There are certain games where I would be interested in a sequel or alternate story in the same universe, like Chrono Cross or Lunar. I just don't think that GTA V or its fans are to blame for those sequels not being made. I'd rather have positive interest in the genres I like than blame other genres for successfully garnering interest.

[jay_are]

TempestOne:
But that's what I'm talking about, the interest there is "behind-the-scenes"!
Is it not disappointing that GTA is so interesting in gamer's eyes, that a game like this was made?
I mean, you've seen the game, right? It is the most technologically advanced game I have ever seen. It will have the highest ratings ever.
Why does it have to be the game about crime and shootin' pplz? Id rather just watch the freakin' news.
Remember how Final Fantasy 7 and Zelda Ocarina of Time were "The greatest games in history"?
I know people that are comparing GTA V to Einstein............................................. *cries*.

I just don't think that GTA V or its fans are to blame for those sequels not being made.

Not exactly... Ok, even if GTA didn't exist in general, all other series would be pretty much the same they are now.
It's just that this game is proof of what the majority of gamers really want 'now'.

But let me put it this way. When Pokémon was made, it made other game companies want to make games similar to Pokémon!
Pokémon made people like RPGs better, and be more open about anything that was a team of kids and had monsters you could catch.
Same as Final Fantasy 7. After that game came out, a lot of other games suddenly started looking like it.
Sooo, its not that GTA V will prevent other games from being made, but it will push gaming in general to go in the totally wrong direction.

As of today, if a Chrono Trigger game was made, that had as much detail as GTA V, and people could only choose either that or GTA V.... GTA would beat the crap outta Chrono Trigger. And I'm sad about the kind of people the world is really full of.

I would fully accept GTA V though... if first, we could get at least 2 games from each series I like, with such "great story telling" and "content" and "technology" that GTA V has.

Zelda Wii U, I'm counting on U.

[TempestOne]

NT

[Jenner]

"Sociopathic" games like GTA, Saints Row, Just Cause, etc have their place and draw, they are lovely tools of escapism. I wouldn't exactly call these games absolutely "good" games. (The latter two are made by the multi-player, not the game itself) but they are good for the genre.

I've found myself growing a bit cynical and jaded about games lately, it just doesn't feel like there have really been a lot of incredibly good truly must-have games for me (the last one for me was Bastion, that was forever ago.) But, I may have very specific taste...

All the same, despite all this, I am seeing Video Games going the way of the Movie Industry. Sequelitis, copycatting, etc... so, I'm pretty sure the Triple A companies are going to get hit by another crash here in the next 5-10 years. The cost of making and releasing a game at the specs they think they need to release it is outpacing the profit of the game. (Layman's Terms: Making games is getting too expensive.) It's why they don't take many risks, often just recycle the same game, etc...

Very few of the games released these days are worth the 40-60 bucks you have to spend to get them (at least for me...)

[TempestOne]

NT

[Sonic#]

[GTA]'s just that this game is proof of what the majority of gamers really want 'now'.

No, that's a hyperbole. There is no one section of gamers that's a "majority" whose interests determine the direction of the industry. There are several simultaneous trends responding to several perceived markets. We have trends including:
1. the turn to casual gaming, overlapped with
2. the turn to mobile gaming.
3. rethinking MMO in terms of microtransactions
4. retooling FPS for dynamic multiplayer
5. retooling old genres anew (Star Citizen; AoE II rerelease; "retro" platformers)
6. continued propagation of niche titles (Harvest Moon)
7. big budget action+open+storytelling games

7 is a huge trend; there are six other trends I could come up with before reaching it. Meanwhile, we have mainstay groups like Nintendo producing their own appreciated work, we have several RPGs being made for release, and many of the games in these other trends (especially 2, 5, 6, and 7) are substantially influenced by RPG elements. We're no longer in a late 1990s RPG boom; we're far from bust. Lots of players still want RPGs.

As of today, if a Chrono Trigger game was made, that had as much detail as GTA V, and people could only choose either that or GTA V.... GTA would beat the crap outta Chrono Trigger. And I'm sad about the kind of people the world is really full of.

I don't think the people who like GTA are bad people, which seems to be the suggestion here.

It's true that a JRPG is unlikely to be as successful as GTA V has been. That's fine. Because there are several places where interest develops, it's only necessary for a JRPG to be as successful as the resources put into the game. To use two actual examples:
1. Final Fantasy VII. It has sold 10 million copies by 2010. It's a massively successful game, praised in its genre, widely recognized by many, many gamers. It's still not as successful as Grand Theft Auto III, which had sold 14.5 million copies by 2008. GTA III doesn't overshadow FF7. Both are awesome in what they do.
2. Xenoblade Chronicles. High production value, very beautiful game, very fun. Didn't sell games in the millions; still made an impact; the developers are making another RPG. Overblown success is not required to make a good sequel - modest success and developer interest is.
So yes, GTA would most likely beat the crap out of Chrono Trigger. That's no reason for dire predictions, since the two are not directly competing in the first place.

Finally, the notion that GTA V will push gaming in the wrong direction is overblown. It may create a trend. The effects of that trend are as yet undetermined, but one likely effect will be similar to that of GTA III - more open world, more activities that one can do. Isn't this somewhat similar to what recent JRPGs have been doing? Not all the influences have to be bad, and the influences will be moderated by the many other trends out there, including trends for JRPGs.

[Leo]

I understand being upset that Lunar isn't as known as it should be, but if you want to place blame, blame Sega for releasing the Sega CD at $300 in 1992 dollars. Blame the infamously horrible FMV games that tarnished the system's name further. Blame the Sega CD's color limitations of 32 colors. There's nothing surprising about this series being a cult classic.

[jay_are]

Sure! I do recognize that there are many different good games being made, but take a look at this...

We're no longer in a late 1990s RPG boom; we're far from bust.

Late 90s... as in, at least from 1995 - 2000, right? After that, it's not been quite the boom anymore, even if lots of players still want RPGs, right?
Then look at this.
GTA III came out in 2001. 12 years later, we have only BEGUN to see this trend evolve into its glorious state.
By 2020, it will be a monstruosity, and I predict it will keep growing.
Sure they arent bad games, nor does it have bad fans!
I will just sit here with my arms crossed seeing how the games I just happen to like barely even come out as digital re-releases for phones anymore and with errors, while the ones i just don't happen to like get the full treatment with big, perfect, highly rated, physical console releases.

[Werefrog]

I often feel like the gaming world left me behind too. It's the natural course of getting older. It's like complaining about Justin Bieber. You're not in the target demographic anymore!

But is all lost? No. The gaming industry has become extremely varied (similar trends have occurred in all popular media). Fortunately, the field is so broad that if you look you are bound to find something you will enjoy. Don't begrudge others for fun that's not at your expense. That will lead to an unhappy life faster than anything. Just find your own fun.

[Sonic#]

GTA III came out in 2001. 12 years later, we have only BEGUN to see this trend evolve into its glorious state.
By 2020, it will be a monstruosity, and I predict it will keep growing.

That is a slippery slope though - you cannot know what will happen eight years from now. Some trends fade away fast, some persist, very few dominate. (3D gameplay? Stats supporting physics-based interaction? There are a ton of exceptions to this.) You cannot reliably predict whether GTA V is a beginning, an end, or what. Nor can you reliably predict what it would begin or end. The flaw is not you - it's the uncertainty of how trends develop.

To illustrate, let's take your same argument and make it about RPGs:

"Final Fantasy came out in 1987. Twelve years later (FF7-8) we have only begun to see this trend evolve into its glorious state. By 2010 it will be a monstrosity, and I predict it will keep growing."

That didn't happen though, even though it was technically possible to make that prediction in 1999. We could imagine a future where the huge blockbuster would be an RPG. Looking back, we can start to speculate about why that was the case using information we've only seen since - several RPGs capitalizing on the trend were rather mediocre in quality and sales suffered, some designers of RPGs were consolidated as a result, attempts by Squaresoft to expand into other genres (like film) were not fruitful, and designers of games in other genres RPG-ified their own games rather than reproduce the RPG genre wholesale.

I could apply these reasons to GTA V, but the gesture would be very speculative. There's no guarantee that mediocre products will be produced or that they won't sell, or that designers will hit tough financial times, or that some elements rather than others will be adopted.

I often feel like the gaming world left me behind too. It's the natural course of getting older. It's like complaining about Justin Bieber. You're not in the target demographic anymore!

But is all lost? No. The gaming industry has become extremely varied (similar trends have occurred in all popular media). Fortunately, the field is so broad that if you look you are bound to find something you will enjoy. Don't begrudge others for fun that's not at your expense. That will lead to an unhappy life faster than anything. Just find your own fun.

I agree with this. I get feeling like the dominant trends of the gaming world have left you behind. Even in the days of Doom or Halo, I wasn't into most shooters, and took refuge in what some would consider niche genres. I can't begrudge others for having fun with those genres - that leads to unhappiness fast. I look for and find what I like, and fortunately with JRPGs, there is still a lot out there, both in terms of old games I've never played (FF9 being one example) and new games I want to play (The Last Story; Pier Solar).

[Werefrog]

Speaking of old games that we never played, I suddenly want to play Star Ocean.

[jay_are]

...old games I've never played (FF9 being one example) and new games I want to play (The Last Story; Pier Solar).

I have high hopes on The Last Story and Pier Solar!
However, FF9, which I have played................... Oh God no. I better stop here! That will be a whole chain of ranting.

[TempestOne]

NT

[Sonic#]

Oh, I'll be one of the first ones to just blurt out that the Grand Theft Auto + sports video games are frick and frack of video game culture. I do not think, or feel anyone truly plays those video games aside from the developers themselves, and actual professional athletes, haha.

You may think or feel as you wish, but that is incorrect. There are lots of people who play these games besides developers and professional athletes. I have several friends who do. The latter are high sellers thanks in part to the benefit of league brands.

Sports games were some of the first games that I played. There was a basketball game for the Commodore 64, and then a baseball game for the Sega Genesis. I played these partly because I liked playing these sports in real life. Playing the sport can be one motivation for play. Others include being a fan of a particular team, liking the way the simulation of a particular game works (NBA Jam), or enjoying the multiplayer/teambuilding aspects. Their reasons for liking their games may be as well developed as your reasons for liking RPGs; they're not to be lightly dismissed.

Is there ever really a target demographic when it comes to video games, though?

Yes. Market demographics for video games are not destiny, which is what you seem to imply. They are expectations that a game will appeal to more players of a particular category. Rather like writing a romance or science fiction book for a certain imagined audience, demographics are the imagined audience of a game. Anyone can play the games or not play the games.

Target demographics also determine some of the content of the game. If more publishers had women gamers in mind, for example, they would demand different games from designers, including (perhaps) games with well-designed female protagonists. Some publishers are already making that shift, with women now being half of gamers and the 18-35 population of gamers (for both men and women) growing in importance.

[Imperial Knight]

All the same, despite all this, I am seeing Video Games going the way of the Movie Industry. Sequelitis, copycatting, etc... so, I'm pretty sure the Triple A companies are going to get hit by another crash here in the next 5-10 years. The cost of making and releasing a game at the specs they think they need to release it is outpacing the profit of the game. (Layman's Terms: Making games is getting too expensive.) It's why they don't take many risks, often just recycle the same game, etc...

I have to wonder myself how sustainable the current AAA model is. When you're reaching the point that games are selling 1M+ copies and still being considered failures because the budget was so big you needed to sell many more to turn a decent profit, something's wrong. And I'm certainly not interested in paying $60 for a half-finished game full of DLC, which seems to be the trend nowadays. Also, you kids get off my lawn!

For the record, there's still plenty going on in gaming that does interest me, but most of what I see from the big companies nowadays just doesn't seem worth it, even when it's from a series I love (e.g. SimCity).

[TempestOne]

NT

[parappa]

Corporate business logic is crazy. Publicly traded companies would happily risk slowly destroying their whole industry over the next 10 years if it means doubling their profit for the next quarter, or it seems that way at least. Big publishers like EA and Activision routinely cancel projects that they've already spent millions of dollars on. The world looks totally different through a business executive's eyes.

If you're like me and don't care for this state of affairs, a good alternative is to look into the indie games community. It has grown massively over the past few years and continues to. I'm on Desura.com, HumbleBundle.com, IndieRoyale.com, and Steam Greenlight all of the time. There are a lot of bad games to sort through, but you get amazing stuff sometimes, like the Zeboyd RPGs (Cosmic Star Heroine is going to be great).

Kickstarter is a big part of the scene, too. Just know that anything you "buy" there might fail leaving you with nothing. I assume we've all heard of Mighty Number 9 by now, but in a nutshell, the original creator of Mega Man finally left Capcom out of frustration at not being allowed to make a new Mega Man game, and Mighty Number 9 is basically what he wanted to make. It look _amazing_. There's also a Kickstarter for River City Ransom: Underground that you should check out. And just... so many others.

I've been an on-again, off-again Shadowrun fan since the mid-90s, and I loved the Sega Genesis RPG. Kickstarter already resurrected my love for that game with Shadowrun Returns, after Microsoft failed to years ago with that expensive Shadowrun arena FPS game.

Unity is huge right now. It's doing for 3D game creators what Flash did for 2D content creators back in the late 90s. Everyone is using it, and so many amazing iPhone and Android games are coming out of that.

That reminds me, also keep an eye on game jam sites, if you get really into indie stuff. Ludum Dare and Global Game Jam are two examples of sites where you can go and play tons of mini-games. It's kinda like Kongregate but more experimental and crazy.

What I really want to say here is just that nobody should depend on a big company like Rockstar to create the games that make us happy. They're in the business of making GTA type games, and yes it is a sad reflection on society at large, but that is only one of many, many sad reflections on humankind that will become more and more obvious as we all grow older. Still, it's fine for them to go off and do that, and it's fine for 15 million people to buy GTA5 on launch week. You can, and should, just do your own thing. Find an indie creator that you care about and support them. That's how projects like Minecraft get started.

I was at a sushi restaurant the other day, and there was an 8 year-old kid talking about Minecraft non-stop. Every time I come across young children talking about games, it's generally always about Minecraft. That Notch guy didn't spend a dime on marketing, and whereas GTA5 cost something like $240 million to make, Minecraft was made by only a few people over the course of a couple of years. In the grand scheme of things, GTA5 is a blip compared to Minecraft; when that 8 year old kid is 30 he'll still remember it. So don't feel too glum about gamers.

[jay_are]

Indie games!! One day I found a demo of VVVVVV on a website with flash games.
Was into it instantly. I bought the game. Then played a lot of other cool flash games too.
I really seriously love this game called FEZ, which people seem to hate just because the creator was less than a nice guy.
But I love that game!

Mighty no.9, I was there when the kickstarter passed the first $10,000
I was so excited that I came here and made a thread too! It's on the General Gaming, the one called DOUBLE the EXCITEMENT!!!!