Beastmen and Humans . . .

For discussion of Lunar: Dragon Song (Lunar: Genesis), the only Lunar game on the DS
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Master Lunn
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Beastmen and Humans . . .

Postby Master Lunn » Thu Feb 02, 2006 9:18 pm

I'm just curious as to why the beastmen and humans dont get along in this game. I know that there will be some issues as to lifestyle, strength etc . . but it really seems that people like Zethos and Ezekiel dont have a problem with humans but everyone else (except for a select few) does. Does this change in the other lunar titles . . ?

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Postby Alunissage » Thu Feb 02, 2006 11:11 pm

Yes, it does. In the other games humans and beastmen get along just fine. The conflict between them is completely unique to this game.

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Postby CoePSX » Fri Feb 03, 2006 12:41 am

The true and real reason why Dragon song has so many diferences to the the other Lunar games is because Dragon Song is not a REAL Lunar game.
They just thought:

"We need a new game for this new DonkeyKong-looking GameBoy... I GOT IT! Let's take one of those fantastic 10-years old RPGs and make a new game based on that! All we gotta do is copy the world and style of characters and put a lame story on it! People will love it!"

And so they began to work on Dragon Song... well... one week or two later, they finished it! Cool!!! It's selling pretty good since there are so many fans of Lunar out there. They do a lot of merchandise everybody buys it! However... they don't accept it back nor give back your money after you discover how bad it really is!

That's why in Dragon Song beastmen and humans don't go along well, and the battle system is all messed up, and running chews your HP, and using your powers can kill you, and the caracters come at level 1, and etc and etc...

:wink: My personal guess is that Dragon Song was writen by a six-years-old who never played any of the Lunar, he just read an awfull review somewhere on the internet... and perhaps it even was about Final Fantssy VII...

I got nothing against Dragon Song though, actually a new "Lunar :cry: " game is certainly good news... but that Game Arts screwed up this time they did! And it's not Ubi's fault, they just translated the messed RPG.

And unfortunatelly for us Lunar fans, this conspiracy will go unpunished, cause everybody believes Lunar III will only come out if Dragon Song hit it well on te sales...

Just wanted to make clear my opinion! 8)

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Postby Master Lunn » Fri Feb 03, 2006 1:12 am

:shock: . . . . wow . . . even thought is just your point . . . its probably all true, though i have never encountered a situation where using your powers can kill you ( unless your talking about the black dragon fight which i have yet to encounter cuz im stuck finding the white dragon :x ) I also agree that running + sapping your hp = stupid random issues.

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Postby Alunissage » Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:25 am

CoePSX wrote:Just wanted to make clear my opinion!


How about griping in another thread devoted to that (such as the one which is currently right below this one, or very near) rather than in a thread asking about a specific aspect of the game, started by someone who's playing it for the first time and maybe wants to, you know, enjoy it? Because this isn't really the place for the exaggerated, overwrought commentaries like yours.

Besides which, the setting with the beastmen and humans being at odds with each other has very little to do with the game's flaws and a good game could have been made with that premise; there's lots of space in Lunar's unknown history to have this sort of thing.

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Postby Kizyr » Fri Feb 03, 2006 2:39 am

CoePSX wrote:The true and real reason why Dragon song has so many diferences to the the other Lunar games is because Dragon Song is not a REAL Lunar game.


Your 'opinion' is a load of crap.

Sorry, there's really no more blunt way to put it. There's a difference between an opinion of the quality of a game, and one where you go on this wild unbased tangent about how the game was produced.

The fact is, the original story that was behind Dragon Song on paper, in the storyboard documents, was quite good. The basic ideas of it had a lot of things true to the whole spirit of Lunar. The beastman-human divide is something that was hinted at in other games (back to TSS, though it was reversed there), so having a game that explores that period of time deeper isn't antithetical to the series itself.

Regardless, as the production on the actual game progressed, they neglected to consider feedback on the gameplay mechanics. So while the background story was good, the game itself told it very poorly. Stuff got tossed out because it couldn't conceivably be fit into the game anywhere. Not to mention some of the more irritating aspects: the lack of enemy selection in battles, broken items, character imbalance (making everyone but Jian practically worthless), etc. -- the HP loss during running is an overstated problem, by the way; that's the least of the problems with Lunar: DS's gameplay. But, a good story that's told poorly ends up lousy.

If you want to gripe, go ahead. But don't be ridiculous about it. KF
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Postby CoePSX » Fri Feb 03, 2006 3:48 pm

I'm sorry if my 'opinion' goes so diferent from yours... i actually never intended to go in a diferent way... i started writing about the beastmen and humans subject, but i ended up going into a whole diferent point, and i apologie for that. :(

But yet, everyone can have it's own point of viewing the game, so, please try not to call someone's idea "a load of crap". I didn't write anything so offensive, i just made a joke (perhaps an awfull one).

Now, if you started playing this game i'm sorry i was so 'direct' about it, but... you can find pretty much what i wrote in most reviews of this game around the net.

Yeah... i screwed it up too...
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Postby Master Lunn » Fri Feb 03, 2006 4:52 pm

It's ok . . . its not really gonna affect my game at all, i was just trying to figure out why the beastmen and humans didnt really get along cuz so far its not really explained in detail and it seems that im almost at the end of the game :cry: I really wish they would have went into further detail about the whole issue and about King Zethos and Ignatius and the other people ( unless its explained further into the game ).

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Postby Alunissage » Fri Feb 03, 2006 5:55 pm

Having a negative opinion is fine, and you're entitled to yours. However, "was writen by a six-years-old who never played any of the Lunar, he just read an awfull review somewhere on the internet... and perhaps it even was about Final Fantssy VII..." is childish and stupid. That's what Kizyr is calling a load of crap, not the fact that you dislike the game. Gripe intelligently or don't bother, and be prepared for people to bring up refutations.

Such as the human/beastman conflict -- the topic of this thread -- being a reason that the game is of poor quality. In no way does it make the game "not a real Lunar". As Kizyr said, there are hints of it in TSS, and I think in Magic School also.

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Postby CoePSX » Fri Feb 03, 2006 6:29 pm

Yeah... you're right...

:evil: but Kizyr is evil!!! :evil:

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Postby Master Lunn » Sat Feb 04, 2006 3:56 am

He is not evil . . . He is the keeper of knowledge . . . as his name implies lol.

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Postby Kizyr » Sat Feb 04, 2006 6:02 am

Hey, somebody has to be a little evil around here.

Anyway, more to the point. The beastman-human divide is one of the things I really liked when the story came out. But, like a lot of things, it's something that wasn't fleshed out at all. It started out as a great idea, and a really nice backdrop to the setting, but ended up sounding really cliched and overdone.

Mind you, I still think there were some good lines, particularly from Jian, regarding the whole thing. But other than that--like the stock lines you got from Beastman NPCs--it started coming across as more irritating than interesting. Also, originally, Lucia was supposed to have this fascination with beastmen; that could've been interesting had they pursued it, but they didn't. KF
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Postby Master Lunn » Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:31 am

well that kinda sucks . . . that probably woulda changed alot about the game as well ( i think ) y couldnt they take more time on the game???? :evil:

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Postby CoePSX » Mon Feb 06, 2006 2:58 am

Hmmm... although the DS game can get to 512mb, they made Dragon Song with only around 30mb. I still think Dragon Song was just an experience to see if the Lunar series is worth a new serious title.

And about the beastmen and humans thing... how do you think it could have changed about the game?
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Postby ilovemyguitar » Mon Feb 06, 2006 4:17 am

Yeah, that seems to be the general concensus on what DS was meant to be.

I'm just curious what the verdict is. DS was obviously not a resounding success, but it seems to have gotten plenty of press, even though most of it was negative and complaining about how it didn't measure up to the series's legacy. That shows that there's interest in the series, right?
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Postby Kizyr » Mon Feb 06, 2006 5:00 am

Interest, yes. But what Lunar: DS proved more so is that Lunar's unlike Final Fantasy--if you market a lousy Lunar game, people won't buy it. If you market a lousy Final Fantasy game, you can still likely sell enough to make it profitable.

I do strongly believe that a new Lunar game, given the proper treatment, could sell very well. That means investing serious time into fleshing out the story (that doesn't mean just planning out the story, but executing it in the gameplay to make it fun). That means investing serious time into a new soundtrack. That means testing out new gameplay elements to make sure they're interesting, not irritating.

I still maintain that Lunar: DS was an all right game in its own right. But all those irritating gameplay elements added onto what felt like a rushed storyline, and so it ended up being too poorly-thought out to really shine. KF
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Postby localflick » Tue Feb 07, 2006 12:39 am

Lunar DS is an odd entry into the series. They changed a lot, and it came around a decade after the last entry (re-makes excluded). If it's compared to either of the original two it falls short, but it's not a bad game as long as you don't compare it. It is a flawed game, and while the running consuming HP quirk is a little inconvenient, it's not enough to ruin the game. (The character balance on the other hand...) It's a matter of perspective.
So was it a wake up call to show that more time, effort, testing, and funding need to be involved in the next Lunar game? Or will it discourage GA from making another one?
As for the beastmen, I agree with Kizyr. It's an interesting concept that shows a period of time in the Lunar series we haven't seen yet, but instead of using the townspeople's (NPC's... whatever you call them) dialogue to develop what's going on, they just say repetitive phrases about disliking humans. You already know that as a player, and it gets old fast.
It would be really nice, if GA took all the fan-feedback into account and made a great Lunar game. One that's closer to the first two. One where they keep the story as solid as it originated... wishful thinking.

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Postby Angelalex242 » Wed Feb 08, 2006 1:20 am

I think it has to be redone for a console system to get the play quality it deserves. Preferably, a high quality console like PS2. They wouldn't be able to skimp on the game then.

Look at the difference between dragon warrior VII and VIII.
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Postby Ardekh » Wed Feb 15, 2006 1:37 am

...

Anyway, as far as beastmen and humans go, their relationships are different in the three games.

DS - Conflict, beastmen act superior.

SS - The end of an era of human superiority. It is often mentioned how Mel's efforts in his position of power and relationship with his human wife helped get rid of racism. Beastmen and human relatitions are still rare, but it seems the conflict is mostly over. [about Mel] "The marriage was a popular subject of gossip all over the region, because it was still very, very unusual for a humans and beastfolk to wed (and that's not even getting into their vastly different social positions)."

EB - Racism seems completely gone by this time, especially considering two of the most powerful people on Lunar are beastmen. And nobody seems shocked by Ronfar and Mauri.

So I guess we missed the whole era where humans were superior. That would be seen if they ever made a game about Dyne's time.

I dunno why I find beastmen fascinating, but I do!

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Postby Alunissage » Wed Feb 15, 2006 2:08 am

Yeah, I was really kind of annoyed about the beastman dominance in DS for the opposite of what it seems...because it's clearly portrayed as a negative, and the humans are the lead characters and the ones who have all the special skills, unlike the limited beastmen. Humans are therefore shown as the superior race, and the beastmen being dominant seems to serve as an excuse for humans to dominate them in turn, as SS suggests they have. I'm really sick of hearing about how special humans are in a setting when there are perfectly sentient and capable nonhumans. This is one reason I'd like to see a beastman/woman Dragonmaster, and why I would have liked to see Jian, Lucia, and Gabryel handled more like Sandor, Elin, and P.J. in Vay. (I think it was PJ, anyway, haven't played since '95.)


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