Vile tribe

[S.ninja]

You guys helped my research on the heros, now I need the help of people who know more than me about the Vile Tribe.

For the most part I use TSS as the lore I lean on the most and in that game ALL vile tribe we see in game were monsters even Ghaloen had monster form at the end. I just assumed that they used magic to look human.

Then The Vane air ship manga showed the magic tribe to be humanoid and I believe they are the vile tribe just translated differently (I could be wrong)

This also make me question about the banishment of the tribe if they where in Vane and how the world looks at them

If anyone can help me clarify is the magic tribe and vile tribe the same and of so are they monstrous in disguise or half monstrous half human or just made monsters for game play

[Shinto-Cetra]

Vile Tribe is a translation of Mazoku. The Vile Tribe had multiple factions: 500 years before TSS, Xenobia's ancestors were banished to the frontier for trying to conquer Lunar (they are long lived so I guess it's *possible* Xenobia herself was the leader then too, but something tells me she wasn't even alive then.) The Vane Vile Tribe/Mazoku were the same species but never rebelled against Althena (in fact they founded Vane), so they were never banished. Ghaleon and Xenobia in TSS have alternate demon forms, but can also take human forms which they use for most of the game. Weaker ones tend to always look demon like, eg the goblin-like soldiers Alex fights when Burg is enslaved. I'm not sure if they are using magic to make themselves look human, or use magic to power up into a demon form, I suspect the latter. Vile Tribe/Mazoku can cast magic without an incantation, ie they want fire, boom there's fire, no need for a spell. They are also very long lived, but also have a lower birth rate. The latter is why the Vane Mazoku died out, and partially why Latona rebels in Vane Airship manga. It's also worth mentioning Barua from Magic/Walking School Lunar had her own group of Mazoku, considering the way they're portrayed they *could* be Xenobia's faction earlier in the history of Lunar. I know somewhere it says they are "magic made flesh", which ties in with casting magic without an incantation. Also Mazoku tatoos enhance their magic ability though humans can get the same effects with body pant (eg one FMV in MSL!). I've never played Dragon Song, but I know there is some reference to them there. And I also mainly use the TSS lore, if you look between the lines I find the Mazoku more sympathetic there (not the official narrative, cause most human/beastmen NPCs hate them, mainly cause Ghaleon did *not* enslave them in TSS.)

[Alunissage]

The most literal translation of "Mazoku" is "magic race", it seems, but WD probably went with Vile Tribe because they were pretty unambiguously monsters/evil in TSS. The moral ambiguity about them didn't come up until later games. I really don't care for "Vile Tribe" for that reason and generally prefer calling them Mazoku because there isn't an implication of evilness in that to my native-English-speaker ears (although I seem to recall that there's an implication of darkness in that Japanese term for magic).

Dragon Song has the origins of the Mazoku as being people who wanted to experiment with "black magic" (again, that wouldn't be my preferred translation but no one asked me) that didn't require Althena's or the dragons' powers. As I recall, they basically voluntarily exiled themselves to the Frontier so that they could do this research and development away from Althena's sight -- not quite a rebellion, but certainly a preference for not being told what to do. This is one thing I rather like about Dragon Song's story, in that it adds an interesting bit of nuance to the story of the Mazoku being banished. You could work out a rationale for why Xenobia would think of it as banishment of innocents while Althena would see it as necessary confinement of people playing with with destructive forces without caring much about their impact on others. So they may as well do it where the land is already pretty unusable. At the time of Dragon Song there isn't really much other magic besides priestly/healing and dragon attacks (which in that sense are closer to TSS, as all four dragon spells are attacks), although that might have been clarified if the Ausas had appeared in the game as they were originally intended to. (Sigh.)

Regarding Vane, I have the recollection that either Ghaleon or maybe Morris refers to the "low-life" Mazoku on the border, as distinct from their own noble selves that once dominated Vane. I also had the impression that sometime between when Ghaleon, Morris, and Tagak left Vane and when Ghaleon returned with Dyne, there was some conflict betweent said lower-class Mazoku and humans that maybe wiped them out? I dunno.

In TSS there was nothing about Ghaleon also being Mazoku, by the way. His race is never really mentioned, I'm pretty sure. It seems likely to me that even in SSSC no one would think of him as being the same race as Xenobia and her set. Whether they're actually genetically distinct or just so socially different that no one sees them as connected, I couldn't say, but clearly there's no prejudice against Ghaleon for racial reasons even though everyone knows that the Vile Tribe are Bad. I wonder if this is just because Ghaleon was basically the only one left by then. When he and Dyne go to Vane, people look at him in wonder and awe, which probably puzzles Dyne. In the previous story, even though Ghaleon's brother was an immensely popular teacher, the Mazoku are still set apart as a whole, living separately and viewed with awe and a bit of fear by the humans. Several generations later, the Ausas are probably about the only people who still remember Ghaleon exists. Man, this is making me all sorts of depressed now.

Regarding the monstrosity/humanity of their forms... well, my guesses are:
1) it's for gameplay purposes primarily, particularly in Ghaleon's case since we see him as a child (well, 17) in Vane looking like anyone else except for the ears
2) being in the Frontier, a barren and even poisonous environment (even moreso in Dragon Song than TSS), has messed them up physically all sorts of ways. This is suggested by the ones in cocoons (life-support chambers) in SSSC. Hard to say whether the Frontier was always like that or if the experimentation of the Dragon Song exiles basically turned the place radioactive. Also hard to say whether Xenobia's and her sisters' natural forms are the more humanoid ones or monstrous, but I'd probably lean toward the more humanoid forms myself for consistency with the body markings, which Latona also has. It may also be that monster forms are simply more comfortable in the Frontier -- tougher skin, adapted eyes for a harsh environment, I dunno.

[S.ninja]

Wow you guys are awesome this really clarified things for me as someone who only has the WD translation to go on this helps a lot.

I also don't like the term "vile" for them but the vile tribe theme in TSS is my favorite track

[Alunissage]

I might be wrong about the part about the Mazoku being in the Frontier voluntarily. Just found another doc with some transcribed dialogue from Dragon Song:

Titus:
That is correct.
Originally the Frontier existed to confine those evildoers for whom there was no other hope... Until, that is, Ignatius turned his attention to it.

Gabryel:
...What did he do?

Titus:
Through a terrible abuse of Black Magic, he took the fiends of the Frontier and molded them into a Vile Tribe. Now, he stands at their head, a terrible and mighty army of evil.

The entire world is standing on the brink of being ruled by Ignatius and his Vile Tribe.

However, I think I later transcribed a lot more of the game's dialogue, so there may be more to it than that. I'm also not convinced by Titus's statement on why "the Frontier existed", as opposed to it just being the part of the world that Althena didn't terraform -- although it sort of fits in with my long ago speculation that Lunar itself was originally populated by evildoers from the Blue Star, before it became necessary for Althena to move people there, and that those evildoers and their descendants made up the Vile Tribe and other monsters.

[Shinto-Cetra]

The most literal translation of "Mazoku" is "magic race", it seems, but WD probably went with Vile Tribe because they were pretty unambiguously monsters/evil in TSS. The moral ambiguity about them didn't come up until later games. I really don't care for "Vile Tribe" for that reason and generally prefer calling them Mazoku because there isn't an implication of evilness in that to my native-English-speaker ears (although I seem to recall that there's an implication of darkness in that Japanese term for magic).

The moral ambiguity is not downright stated in dialogue, yes, but I mean if you look between the lines it is there in TSS. Being banished to a barren wasteland for 500 years is a pretty cruel move, so I can't blame them for wanting revenge at least. And there was more camaraderie in the TSS Mazoku implied by them not being enslaved, Ghaleon and Xenobia "have really hit it off" -Grindery Pixie, etc.

In TSS there was nothing about Ghaleon also being Mazoku, by the way. His race is never really mentioned, I'm pretty sure. It seems likely to me that even in SSSC no one would think of him as being the same race as Xenobia and her set. Whether they're actually genetically distinct or just so socially different that no one sees them as connected, I couldn't say, but clearly there's no prejudice against Ghaleon for racial reasons even though everyone knows that the Vile Tribe are Bad. I wonder if this is just because Ghaleon was basically the only one left by then. When he and Dyne go to Vane, people look at him in wonder and awe, which probably puzzles Dyne. In the previous story, even though Ghaleon's brother was an immensely popular teacher, the Mazoku are still set apart as a whole, living separately and viewed with awe and a bit of fear by the humans. Several generations later, the Ausas are probably about the only people who still remember Ghaleon exists. Man, this is making me all sorts of depressed now.

It may not have been stated in TSS, but he clearly isn't Human/Beastman (demonic transformation ability), or Deity (he needs Althena's power to accomplish his goals) either. Unless he is some other race altogether, Mazoku/Vile Tribe seems most likely if one goes by TSS alone, excluding Vane Airship stories. I'm sure they are socially distinct, and somewhat genetically distinct as say Spanish-speaking people in Spain vs those that settled in South/Central America, they have a common ancestry, but have long since diverged into different populations.

[Alunissage]

Eh, "demonic transformation ability" seems a lot more like a gameplay thing to me. Final boss, after all. And having camaraderie doesn't mean that the monsters are less monstrous. They're unambiguously evil in TSS, and the confinement is clearly because they did something to require it, not something debatable. The only dialogue with the Vile Tribe other than Xenobia makes it clear that they're quite one-dimensional.

I don't remember if you've said what order you played the games in, but having played TSS several times before learning of the existence of any other Lunar game or material, I am certain that the moral ambiguity of the Vile Tribe is simply not in that game, between the lines or otherwise.

[Shinto-Cetra]

Eh, "demonic transformation ability" seems a lot more like a gameplay thing to me. Final boss, after all. And having camaraderie doesn't mean that the monsters are less monstrous. They're unambiguously evil in TSS, and the confinement is clearly because they did something to require it, not something debatable. The only dialogue with the Vile Tribe other than Xenobia makes it clear that they're quite one-dimensional.

I don't remember if you've said what order you played the games in, but having played TSS several times before learning of the existence of any other Lunar game or material, I am certain that the moral ambiguity of the Vile Tribe is simply not in that game, between the lines or otherwise.

I'm a latecomer, my order of playing is SSH, then EBC, then TSS. Can't remember what order I read the Lunar mangas in. I have started EB (original) and SSSC but haven't finished either yet, though I plan to after replaying FF6. One could argue confinement in the Frontier is worse than death, so it naturally bred hostility. For camaraderie I meant that many villains seem almost eager to sacrifice their minions, but not in Lunar TSS. When Alex kills the weaker Vile Tribe in Burg, Xenobia, exclaims "You nasty little stains! You killed my henchmen!" Compare with Barua from WSL who is crueler and says something similar, but adds "Killing comes quite naturally, doesn't it?" (source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wN43tYsiB0M ). Or Zophar whose minions are clearly means to an end. Ghaleon and Xenobia do transform, I'm not sure what you mean by "gameplay thing"?. Various anime have human looking demons that have a more monstrous and powerful form that's just one of their abilities, eg Inuyasha, Slayers, YuYu Hakusho. Granted some of these actually came into being after TSS, and there is no definite link between GameArts/Studio Alex and fantasy anime in/before '92 (that I know of) what I mean is that's how I see Ghaleon and Xenobia's demon forms.

[S.ninja]

I might be wrong about the part about the Mazoku being in the Frontier voluntarily. Just found another doc with some transcribed dialogue from Dragon Song:

Titus:
That is correct.
Originally the Frontier existed to confine those evildoers for whom there was no other hope... Until, that is, Ignatius turned his attention to it.

Gabryel:
...What did he do?

Titus:
Through a terrible abuse of Black Magic, he took the fiends of the Frontier and molded them into a Vile Tribe. Now, he stands at their head, a terrible and mighty army of evil.

The entire world is standing on the brink of being ruled by Ignatius and his Vile Tribe.

However, I think I later transcribed a lot more of the game's dialogue, so there may be more to it than that. I'm also not convinced by Titus's statement on why "the Frontier existed", as opposed to it just being the part of the world that Althena didn't terraform -- although it sort of fits in with my long ago speculation that Lunar itself was originally populated by evildoers from the Blue Star, before it became necessary for Althena to move people there, and that those evildoers and their descendants made up the Vile Tribe and other monsters.

With this it would seem that the "tribe" is many monster races taken over and lead by the Mazoku


And I believe that Ghaleon did transform into a monster at the end of TSS as it explains his face scar in EB ( that is why it bothered me that he had it in EBC)

[Alunissage]

Hey, Shinto-Cetra, I realized I was snippier than I intended to be there, sorry. I still disagree regarding how the Vile Tribe is portrayed in TSS, and I especially disagree with using misc animes to make a point about an entirely unrelated game, but I was a bit brusque about it.

I don't know that I'd argue that that confinement was necessarily worse than death. After all, Cadin (TSS) is a human/beastman town in the frontier, and while they acknowledge that life there is very difficult, it's only been in the last 10 years that they've been cut off from the rest of the world -- meaning that, before then, they stayed there voluntarily. On the other hand, see the last DS quote below.

With this it would seem that the "tribe" is many monster races taken over and lead by the Mazoku

It's important to note that in this context the people involved aren't particularly monstrous, as they are in TSS, albeit with a few exceptions. Also, in Dragon Song, the implication was that while some people were banished to the Frontier, others went there voluntarily. And others, humans, were forced to go there, but not by Althena...

Dan
Oh yeah, I've seen that look before.
You want to know why we live out in the Frontier.

Well, long, long ago...
Humans where captured by the Vile Tribe and forced to work in the mines of the Frontier.

But some of them escaped and made this Underground Tunnel their home.
Our boss at the moment is Peres.
---

Adina
The Frontier...
Isn't that where those who hate and oppose the Goddess Althena live?
Why would you want to go there?
---

Ikey
You want to go to the Frontier?
Now that's a tricky one...

Do something against the teachings of the Goddess Althena and you might get sent there...
But that is not really a good idea, is it?
---

Nameless [Vile Tribe member]
For a long, long time now we have suffered as a race forgotten by the rest of the world.

I have no trouble believing that even the Goddess Althena, the very one who sent us here, has long since forgotten that we exist.

You could never understand the pain that comes with simply existing...
The pain of having no purpose.


Nameless
Resistance is futile!

Finally, the time has come for us to take back the green, lush lands for ourselves!
Our Lord is making his stand, to save every living creature in the Frontier!

Our Lord! Ignatius!
The final ray of light piercing the dismal clouds of our fate!

Nameless
All he is trying to do is lead us, the Vile Tribe, in transforming the Frontier into a green and verdant paradise!
Why must you continue to interfere?!

You're not the only ones trying to get back something you've lost, you know!
Just give that some thought...
---

(Of course, that last one is a little naive, as that's definitely not ALL Ignatius has in mind to do. But that seems to be part of how he sold his plan to the folks around him.)

One thing I've wondered about is the original Japanese reading of the line of Titus's about the Mazoku being a group that Ignatius put together. It's going to be nontrivial to find the line in Japanese, though.

Hey, check it out. I actually found it. Hopefully Kizyr or Shiva Indis happens to see this, because Google Translate ain't cutting it.

ガブリエル
あらたなるきょうい？へんきょうのこと？

タイタス
はい。
本来は むほんをくりかえすものたちを
ゆうへいするのが もくてきだったばしょですが…
そこにめをつけたのが イグナティウスでした。

ガブリエル
めをつけた？

タイタス
イグナティウスは 黒魔法をらんようし
へんきょうのならずものたちをしたがえ
魔族となって とうかくをあらわし
きょうだいな せいりょくとなってしまったのです。

いまや この世界は
イグナティウスと 魔族によって
かんぜんに しはいされようとしています。

That's this part here:

Gabryel
Do you mean... the Frontier?

Titus
That is correct.
Originally the Frontier existed to confine those evildoers for whom there was no other hope...
Until, that is, Ignatius turned his attention to it.

Gabryel
...What did he do?

Titus
Through a terrible abuse of Black Magic, he took the fiends of the Frontier and molded them into a Vile Tribe. Now, he stands at their head, a terrible and mighty army of evil.

The entire world is standing on the brink of being ruled by Ignatius and his Vile Tribe.

[S.ninja]

You know for all the crap we give DS it does add to the lore and help answer a few questions. Even if it makes us ask a few

[S.ninja]

It seems to me that the vile tribe where evil a banished. How ever the descendents over time are more bitter and angry at the life they are forced into but choose to point the anger at people who have a better lot and the goddess and not at the ancestors responsible

[Shinto-Cetra]

Hey, Shinto-Cetra, I realized I was snippier than I intended to be there, sorry. I still disagree regarding how the Vile Tribe is portrayed in TSS, and I especially disagree with using misc animes to make a point about an entirely unrelated game, but I was a bit brusque about it.

I'm not offended by the post I am quoting, if you edited it, I didn't see it till now, so no harm done. Since we've both stated our reasoning about Vile Tribe portrayal repeatedly, I guess at this point let's just agree to disagree. The anime part in particular is just in lack of any official explanation that I know of, so if there is any official explanation, let me know.

And I believe that Ghaleon did transform into a monster at the end of TSS as it explains his face scar in EB ( that is why it bothered me that he had it in EBC)

I always though it was a scar from when he was killed and the hands of Alex and co, I don't have proof though.

[Alunissage]

You know for all the crap we give DS it does add to the lore and help answer a few questions. Even if it makes us ask a few

It really does. I was feeling all sorts of pangs of regret and frustration when reviewing the text last night, because it seems like there's a LOT there, crudely translated and suffering from the overall negativity of being in such a flawed game. I still find it pretty depressing for a Lunar game, even without the distaste of its gameplay -- I don't think there are any other examples of a good (non-dragon) guy being killed, or in fact anyone being killed before the end battle (other than Damon dying at some point in TSS, but that's so low-key and unimportant that it didn't even happen in SSS) -- but it raises some pretty interesting points. It's very high on the list of games I'd like to see remade, if it were done well.

And I'm being a little unfair to the translator(s) there too. There clearly was approximately no time to do a decent job, and they tried. One thing I noticed for the first time a couple nights ago is that the very last lines of the game have to be a deliberate homage:

And so, with the Blue Star looking on, our story has just begun...

Carried by the wind, on wings of hope, time moves toward the future.
For now, all is peaceful.
But one day, the time for valor shall return again.
A day when an adventurer will become... Dragonmaster.

This is the Japanese, which even I can tell doesn't have anything like those quotes from WD's lyrics:

あおきほしを 見あげる大地のものがたりは
いま はじまったばかりである…

かぜをつぐものが みらいへのかけはしとなって
いつしか…
あらたなる ぼうけんのたびを はじめることだろう
それは あなたかもしれない。

(Probably someone mentioned that years ago, when the game came out, but I still haven't played that part of the game in English, so I only saw it for the first time recently.)

Shinto-Cetra, I didn't edit anything, just had doubts later about my tone, because I know I was in a grumpy mood when I posted. Would rather apologize in advance for a possible non-issue than be called on it and get reflexively defensive whether or not I think I'm in the wrong. The latter reaction is far too easy to fall into.

I don't think there's any "real" explanation for Ghaleon's face in EB. I know fans have been talking about it for decades, though for some reason that discussion never interested me so I don't really recall much about it other than that no one's been able to cite anything "official" about it. Even if it were supposed to be a remnant of his TSS transformation, it doesn't surprise me that it'd still show up in EBC because there's no particular reason to redo a pretty distinctive facial design.

[S.ninja]

And so, with the Blue Star looking on, our story has just begun...

Carried by the wind, on wings of hope, time moves toward the future.
For now, all is peaceful.
But one day, the time for valor shall return again.
A day when an adventurer will become... Dragonmaster.

Now I'm going to have that song on my head for a week!

[Alunissage]

Both songs -- they managed to grab phrases from both TSS's opening song and SSSC's. It's kind of neat, subtly emphasizing that this is a prequel, and the issue raised in this story, of Althena's relationship to humans and whether they need guidance, will come up again. Yet another thing that the game could have done really well (and maybe does better in Japanese, I dunno) -- planting the seed of that question and leading more smoothly to the decision in SSSC.

Or, for the people like myself who prefer TSS's continuity, establishing a different aspect of Althena's development. She doesn't have the judgment to see Ignatius for who he really is, and becomes human to escape him when she learns more. It's been my thought that this was her first incarnation as a human (note: I am not 100% sure of this, and there may well be text that indicates otherwise in DS) and that it was through this and future incarnations that she got to know more about humans and understand them better, ultimately coming to understand that they could be trusted as a group to handle their own problems. This discernment is also what EB Lucia lacks, and why she doesn't put enough faith in Hiro and friends, as she admits before leaving for the Blue Star.

Really, both of these things could have been done with DS. Turn its ridiculous-seeming recycling of other Lunar plots into a virtue. Once again: argh.

[S.ninja]

Althena saying that humans don't need her and then waiting 1000years to do something about it seemed odd and was THE plot point inDS that bothered me because EB made it sound like she realized it in TSS/SSSC

[Kizyr]

First really quick, as others have said, Vile Tribe in the English is 魔族/Mazoku in the Japanese, consistently. Sucks that the translation was given in TSS before they got more nuance, but, that's what we're stuck with. If we could change the past I would've opted for something like "arcane" or even "fey" as more neutral and suitable. Otherwise, most of what Alun and Shinto-Cetra said I can confirm (although I have a very different take on their banishment to the Frontier, but I won't get into that now).

Now for new stuff.

One thing I've wondered about is the original Japanese reading of the line of Titus's about the Mazoku being a group that Ignatius put together. ... Hey, check it out. I actually found it. Hopefully Kizyr or Shiva Indis happens to see this, because Google Translate ain't cutting it.

タイタス
イグナティウスは 黒魔法をらんようし
へんきょうのならずものたちをしたがえ
魔族となって とうかくをあらわし
きょうだいな せいりょくとなってしまったのです。
いまや この世界は
イグナティウスと 魔族によって
かんぜんに しはいされようとしています。

Titus
Through a terrible abuse of Black Magic, he took the fiends of the Frontier and molded them into a Vile Tribe. Now, he stands at their head, a terrible and mighty army of evil.
The entire world is standing on the brink of being ruled by Ignatius and his Vile Tribe.

This is a pretty decent translation. It carries the same implication and ambiguity in both -- it sounds like Ignatius took over the bad guys in the Frontier, set himself up as their head, and now it's the Vile Tribe. It's most likely saying that the new organized group that Ignatius is the head of is now the Vile Tribe, but not necessarily that Ignatius physically created them like Sauron and the Uruk-hai. (IMO I don't think the writers had a clear enough idea of what they were going for here, and the original script wasn't fleshed out enough to make it clear.)

And I'm being a little unfair to the translator(s) there too. There clearly was approximately no time to do a decent job, and they tried. One thing I noticed for the first time a couple nights ago is that the very last lines of the game have to be a deliberate homage:

And so, with the Blue Star looking on, our story has just begun...
Carried by the wind, on wings of hope, time moves toward the future.
For now, all is peaceful.
But one day, the time for valor shall return again.
A day when an adventurer will become... Dragonmaster.

This is the Japanese, which even I can tell doesn't have anything like those quotes from WD's lyrics:

あおきほしを 見あげる大地のものがたりは
いま はじまったばかりである…
かぜをつぐものが みらいへのかけはしとなって
いつしか…
あらたなる ぼうけんのたびを はじめることだろう
それは あなたかもしれない。

Oh hey, this is one of the things I can actually take credit for. The one line in there, "かぜをつぐもの" (those who inherit the wind) is the title of the fourth Lunar SSS novel. I noted that to the translation team, and suggested that they try to work in a recognizable reference to the original Lunar games -- like, well, song lyrics involving wind. I was actually rather happy to see that last line in the game once I played the English version. KF

[Alunissage]

You know, I thought "inherit the wind" (which I eventually extracted from Google Translate) sounded familiar, but I didn't remember where from.

What do you suppose "a terrible abuse of Black Magic" means? Black Magic is loosely defined in the game as meaning destructive magic that can harm people -- I'll have to look up the exact quote in a few days; I'm out of town now without my notes. I sort of read this as being in contrast to the priestly/healing magics that Lucia and Flora have. Seems to me that one of the Dragons refers to their magic as black magic also, and certainly Jian's four dragon spells, like TSS's, are all attack spells. So... did Ignatius use magic to intimidate the people in the Frontier, or brainwash them, or...?

[Kizyr]

You know, I thought "inherit the wind" (which I eventually extracted from Google Translate) sounded familiar, but I didn't remember where from.

Yeah I translated the title more specifically as "Heir to the Wind" (mostly because I didn't want to translate it partly as the title of the 1955 play by Lawrence and Lee).

What do you suppose "a terrible abuse of Black Magic" means? Black Magic is loosely defined in the game as meaning destructive magic that can harm people ... So... did Ignatius use magic to intimidate the people in the Frontier, or brainwash them, or...?

The distinction seems to be irrelevant by the time of TSS/SSS, but during DS definitely there was a clear indication that "black magic" meant any destructive attack magic -- except maybe the ones that came from a divine source like the dragons or Althena. My read is that it sounds most like Ignatius used black magic to take over the Frontier -- so, most likely some destruction, threats of destruction, and displays of power. The kind of thing that'd get some folks in the Frontier to unite behind him out of fear, others out of a desire to see him use that magic on others. I don't think brainwashing was ever a part of it though. KF