Okay, the gears in my head are turning, and I need help.
- ilovemyguitar
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Okay, the gears in my head are turning, and I need help.
Okay, I keep thinking about Lunar: DS being a prequel set 1000 years before Lunar: The Silver Star, and I'm trying to figure out how a story set in this time could fit into the greater themes of the Lunar series, mostly about the power of humanity. I keep coming back to one possibility, but I need some clarification on a certain plot point of Lunar: The Silver Star.
In the Sega CD version of Lunar: The Silver Star, the mythology stated that Althena was reborn as a human in the world of Lunar many times. Luna was simply the final rebirth. But, was it said to be this way in the Saturn/PSX remakes? I remember the ending being very different. In the remakes, it was said that Althena chose to give up her Goddessy ways when she fell in love with Dyne, and was then reborn as Luna. So, does that mean that Luna was the one and only time Althena had a human incarnation, as per the remakes?
I ask because if the creators go with the idea of Althena having reincartated herself many times throughout the history of Lunar, I suspect that the events of this game will lead to Althena first discovering the power of humanity, and she will decide to be reborn as a human for the first time in order to further explore this power.
I like this idea because it gives the three Lunar games a nice trilogy feel, if you play them out chronologically.
DS: Althena first discovers the power of humanity, and sets in motion a pattern where she will be incarnated as a human regularly.
Silver Star: Althena learns the true root of humanity's power: Love. She decides that Luna will be her final rebirth as a human, and she will die a human death.
Eternal Blue: Centuries after her passing, humanity proves that Althena was right to believe in humanity's power, as it proves to be even stronger than her own power when the dark god Zophar claims it for his own.
In the Sega CD version of Lunar: The Silver Star, the mythology stated that Althena was reborn as a human in the world of Lunar many times. Luna was simply the final rebirth. But, was it said to be this way in the Saturn/PSX remakes? I remember the ending being very different. In the remakes, it was said that Althena chose to give up her Goddessy ways when she fell in love with Dyne, and was then reborn as Luna. So, does that mean that Luna was the one and only time Althena had a human incarnation, as per the remakes?
I ask because if the creators go with the idea of Althena having reincartated herself many times throughout the history of Lunar, I suspect that the events of this game will lead to Althena first discovering the power of humanity, and she will decide to be reborn as a human for the first time in order to further explore this power.
I like this idea because it gives the three Lunar games a nice trilogy feel, if you play them out chronologically.
DS: Althena first discovers the power of humanity, and sets in motion a pattern where she will be incarnated as a human regularly.
Silver Star: Althena learns the true root of humanity's power: Love. She decides that Luna will be her final rebirth as a human, and she will die a human death.
Eternal Blue: Centuries after her passing, humanity proves that Althena was right to believe in humanity's power, as it proves to be even stronger than her own power when the dark god Zophar claims it for his own.
- Alunissage
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The originals and remakes differ on this point, yes -- she had clearly reincarnated several times in the TSS/EB continuity, and only once in the SSSC/EBC one. The outline you suggest would be a way to make a reasonable compromise between the two. You're wrong about Althena's reasons for becoming human, though; there was nothing said at all about her falling in love with Dyne. And indeed that would be a silly way to act on it, becoming a baby in his care.
By the way, you really don't need to mark spoilers for these games here, unless it's in a thread where someone specifically says that they haven't finished (e.g., an asking for help one). Most people here have played at least one version of each of the main games, and it's kind of an implied risk in visiting a site like this. Still, perhaps this should be in General Lunar.
By the way, you really don't need to mark spoilers for these games here, unless it's in a thread where someone specifically says that they haven't finished (e.g., an asking for help one). Most people here have played at least one version of each of the main games, and it's kind of an implied risk in visiting a site like this. Still, perhaps this should be in General Lunar.
- ilovemyguitar
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Well, with the spoiler thing, I figured that most people here would already know what happenes, but I thought it was better safe than sorry. I'd hate to be the source of any poor soul's accidental spoilage if they happen to just be surfing the site.
The point of the Dyne/Althena storyline wasn't that Althena chose to be with Dyne because she loved him. She chose to become human because she saw how powerful his love was, and believed in that power enough to step down and let humans take care of themselves.
If you go by the SSSC/EBC continuity, then it seems that Luna was simply a side effect of Althena ending her life as a goddess. Althena's power is the power of creation, and with that creation there inevitably comes some destrution (Think about Zophar's line in EB, during the showdown with Lucia, about how there can be no creation without destroying what was there before). So, when Althena decided that she didn't want to be a goddess anymore, she created a human girl imbued with her own godly powers (Luna), and the side effect of that creation was her own destruction.
I guess what I'm saying is that Althena didn't do what she did out of a romantic love, but out of love of humanity, and the belief that their passions and love for each other would be a much better caretaker than she could ever hope to be.
The point of the Dyne/Althena storyline wasn't that Althena chose to be with Dyne because she loved him. She chose to become human because she saw how powerful his love was, and believed in that power enough to step down and let humans take care of themselves.
If you go by the SSSC/EBC continuity, then it seems that Luna was simply a side effect of Althena ending her life as a goddess. Althena's power is the power of creation, and with that creation there inevitably comes some destrution (Think about Zophar's line in EB, during the showdown with Lucia, about how there can be no creation without destroying what was there before). So, when Althena decided that she didn't want to be a goddess anymore, she created a human girl imbued with her own godly powers (Luna), and the side effect of that creation was her own destruction.
I guess what I'm saying is that Althena didn't do what she did out of a romantic love, but out of love of humanity, and the belief that their passions and love for each other would be a much better caretaker than she could ever hope to be.
- Alunissage
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In that case, you shouldn't say things like "when she fell in love with Dyne" as you do in your first post.
I'd be interested to know whether that creation/destruction line is about the same in the Japanese game, but I suppose that will have to wait until Kizyr gets to it, unless Temzin knows. Is that in EB or EBC? I thought that was in reference to the destruction of the Blue Star, which isn't so explicit in EB.
I'd be interested to know whether that creation/destruction line is about the same in the Japanese game, but I suppose that will have to wait until Kizyr gets to it, unless Temzin knows. Is that in EB or EBC? I thought that was in reference to the destruction of the Blue Star, which isn't so explicit in EB.
- ilovemyguitar
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Well, we don't know if Althena fell in love with Dyne or not. And I guess the romantic in me wants to think that she did. Besides, her having to make a choice between being with the man she loves, and sacrificing herself for the good of the people of Lunar, reflects why Quark asked Alex which he would do if he had to choose between saving one person he loved, or saving many he didn't personally know. He knew the unusual circumstances around Luna's birth, and that if Alex became a Dragonmaster he would probably find out for himself, so he felt it was important for him to understand why Althena did what she did.
- Alunissage
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Where is it that Zophar says that there can be no new creation without destruction? I'm thinking it's in that bloody long cutscene where Lucia ends up captured, but I don't remember which version it's in. I'm thinking it's only the remake, but I haven't played that since 2001.
ilovemyguitar, I think you're reading too much into Dyne's and Althena's relationship. Certainly there was a rapport, a shared love for humanity, perhaps. But doesn't it strike you as odd that with all that Dyne didn't keep the baby himself but instead turned her over to Noah? And thereafter doesn't have much connection with her. He's a stranger to Alex and Luna, even though he's an old friend of Noah's. Sure, there was love between Althena and Dyne, something that cut Ghaleon out -- but it wasn't romantic, I'm sure. At least not on Althena's side (if she even could love as a nonhuman goddess), and probably not on Dyne's side. Remember how he looked after Althena became a baby? He saw hope for mankind, and there wasn't room for romantic love there.
One thing that I've mused about occasionally is whether Mel and Lemia knew about Dyne becoming Laike. They surely would in the Legend continuity, in which they were present at Althena's rebirth (or at least they'd know that Dyne was still alive) but there's never any encounter between them and Laike in the "present" of the game. Mia and Jess presumably didn't know Laike, but if Alex and Luna didn't that's not surprising. He probably would've avoided Vane anyway because of Ghaleon. Still, with the rapport that he had with Lemia in the Vheen manga (and undoubtedly he had a good one with Mel, he was a born people person), one would think that they'd have some contact afterward. Perhaps it was his love for humans that convinced Althena that they could be trusted with their own destiny.
All this reminds me. Kiz, you really have to listen to the Festa CDs. The first one opens with a scene between Dain and Ghaleon.
And -- this is really stupid, I know -- I can't remember what the putative reason for Dyne's death was in SSSC. Help me, someone? Why did people think he was dead?
ilovemyguitar, I think you're reading too much into Dyne's and Althena's relationship. Certainly there was a rapport, a shared love for humanity, perhaps. But doesn't it strike you as odd that with all that Dyne didn't keep the baby himself but instead turned her over to Noah? And thereafter doesn't have much connection with her. He's a stranger to Alex and Luna, even though he's an old friend of Noah's. Sure, there was love between Althena and Dyne, something that cut Ghaleon out -- but it wasn't romantic, I'm sure. At least not on Althena's side (if she even could love as a nonhuman goddess), and probably not on Dyne's side. Remember how he looked after Althena became a baby? He saw hope for mankind, and there wasn't room for romantic love there.
One thing that I've mused about occasionally is whether Mel and Lemia knew about Dyne becoming Laike. They surely would in the Legend continuity, in which they were present at Althena's rebirth (or at least they'd know that Dyne was still alive) but there's never any encounter between them and Laike in the "present" of the game. Mia and Jess presumably didn't know Laike, but if Alex and Luna didn't that's not surprising. He probably would've avoided Vane anyway because of Ghaleon. Still, with the rapport that he had with Lemia in the Vheen manga (and undoubtedly he had a good one with Mel, he was a born people person), one would think that they'd have some contact afterward. Perhaps it was his love for humans that convinced Althena that they could be trusted with their own destiny.
All this reminds me. Kiz, you really have to listen to the Festa CDs. The first one opens with a scene between Dain and Ghaleon.
And -- this is really stupid, I know -- I can't remember what the putative reason for Dyne's death was in SSSC. Help me, someone? Why did people think he was dead?
I thought (at least in TSS) that Althena took human form as a kind of way to "hide" from the impeding doom arising that she felt? I know that in SSSC there was the idea that she turned human because she felt human's relyed too heavily on her and that she saw their power and wished to entrust them with Lunar.
Lunar: Dragon Song sucked
Nicole Reannin Elgan-Moore
We will always remember...
Nicole Reannin Elgan-Moore
We will always remember...
- ilovemyguitar
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I'm almost completely certain that the line from Zophar was in that cutscene you mentioned, Alun; the Lucia/Zophar showdown. That's the scene where it's revealed that Lucia will have to destroy Lunar in order to seal away Zophar. I remember hearing Hiro yell, "Liar! That's not true!" And then Zophar explains how Althena's power is that of creation, and there can be no new creation without destroying that which came before. I just wish I remembered the exact line.
The line is in the Zophar's Revival scene, almost verbatim like you said. I think I remember the no new creation without the destruction of the old being present in the Mega CD Lunar II as well as the American version...it wasn't as explicit in the Goddess Tower that Althena's power destroyed everything on the Blue Star to seal Zophar the way it was with the remake, though (it was obvious by the time Lucia faced Zophar, but not before that scene). Come to think of it, did SSS really eliminate the idea of Althena having been reborn before in eras past at all? Obviously, it was to be her final rebirth at Luna in TSS (though it wasn't well clarified why until Lunar II) but it's slipped my mind whether she reincarnated previously according to the SSS history, I should look this up when I get home.
- Alunissage
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Yes, but what I'm trying to figure out is whether it's both EB and EBC, or just EBC. EBC had that extra scene where Lucia narrates the Death of the Blue Star, which puts those lines more in context. And I was curious whether those lines are also in the Japanese versions, but barring extracting the relevant scene from the PS disc and sending it to Kizyr I don't know an easy way to find out.
I could look up the exact text in the EBC guide, but don't have time to dig it out tonight; it's behind a pile of other books.
I could look up the exact text in the EBC guide, but don't have time to dig it out tonight; it's behind a pile of other books.
You're right on the money, Alunissage. I just recently finished EBC again and that cutscene (god thats a long scene) is where Zophar says that there can be no new creation without destruction. Don't know if it's in EB though, haven't played that one in a long time.Alunissage wrote:Where is it that Zophar says that there can be no new creation without destruction? I'm thinking it's in that bloody long cutscene where Lucia ends up captured, but I don't remember which version it's in. I'm thinking it's only the remake, but I haven't played that since 2001.
I just checked, Alunissage, and yep, it's definitely in the original Mega CD (Japanese and American) version. In the Zophar's Revival scene as Lucia is hesitating, Zophar urges her on to use the power of Althena...and destroy the entire world. Althena's power is the power of creation, and Zophar states that without destroying what exists, no new creation can occur, just like in the remake. The main difference is that in the remake version of the memories of the Blue Star in the Goddess Tower, it's clear by then that Althena's power erased everything on the Blue Star to defeat Zophar, whereas it wasn't clear on the Mega CD (until Zophar states it himself).
Edit: Oh, and as for Dyne's SSS "death," there isn't any reason given. The insanse Black Dragon bit is completely gone (thankfully) in SSS, but it is never clear how he was supposedly killed, neither in the instruction book, nor in the game itself, as I recall, beyond "protecting the goddess in a time of danger," perhaps=her rebirth (a seperate time of danger than when the Four Heroes arose to fight off an evil god of some sort, to avoid confusion).
Edit: Oh, and as for Dyne's SSS "death," there isn't any reason given. The insanse Black Dragon bit is completely gone (thankfully) in SSS, but it is never clear how he was supposedly killed, neither in the instruction book, nor in the game itself, as I recall, beyond "protecting the goddess in a time of danger," perhaps=her rebirth (a seperate time of danger than when the Four Heroes arose to fight off an evil god of some sort, to avoid confusion).
- Nobiyuki77
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Sega CD version
Hiro: "The power of Althena.... will destroy our world?"
Zophar: "*laughs* You fools don't understand anything, Althena's power is the power of creation. There can be no new creation without destroying the old. Unleashing Althena's power on me will reduce this world to ash..."
PSX Version:
Hiro: "Lucia never told me that, he must be lying."
Zophar: "You fools don't understand anything, Althena's power is the power of creation, there can be no new creation without destroying the old. Unleashing Althena's power on me will reduce this world to ash... just like the Blue Star."
Hiro: "The power of Althena.... will destroy our world?"
Zophar: "*laughs* You fools don't understand anything, Althena's power is the power of creation. There can be no new creation without destroying the old. Unleashing Althena's power on me will reduce this world to ash..."
PSX Version:
Hiro: "Lucia never told me that, he must be lying."
Zophar: "You fools don't understand anything, Althena's power is the power of creation, there can be no new creation without destroying the old. Unleashing Althena's power on me will reduce this world to ash... just like the Blue Star."
-Nobi
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