dragonmaster for a bad guy

[segaboy7]

*wonders how this got soo off topic* -_-

[Alunissage]

It's not really offtopic if it's still about Lunar. This sort of thing is what this board is here for.

[phyco126]

Actually, in SSSC, Nall was only 15 years old, and was still able to become a full sized dragon. I think it's easy to say that Ruby is no older than Hiro. (Though I wonder how they meet, Ruby and Hiro...)

I doubt all dragons end up being someone's friend. The black dragon had no friends, that's why s/he/it ended up with a gambling problem. Also, in SSSC, there was no references to say that any of the current dragons, save for Nall, had been associated with humans except those doing the Dragonmaster quest.

Also, the whole manifestation of magic bit, that someone makes sense, and would explain why they can be small enough for your travel conveinance, or large enough to lay a beat down on someone other than the 5 heros or Ghaleon Or why they can take human form.

Though, I bet dragons have life spans that last for a very long time. Nall was 1015 years old in EBC, but appeared to be no older than his mid 20s in human terms. That coukd easily make Quark one of the original dragons. *gasp* Is he in L: DS?

[Alunissage]

Actually, in SSSC, Nall was only 15 years old, and was still able to become a full sized dragon. I think it's easy to say that Ruby is no older than Hiro. (Though I wonder how they meet, Ruby and Hiro...)

That's because SSSC screwed up many things, that among them. Remember, though, that the big point about Ruby growing big in EB is that she didn't want to grow up...she's not successful at first. So it's not an indicator of age. Indeed, in the SegaCD continuity it'd be more likely to imply that she's older, since Nall stayed small in TSS.

There's no reason to assume that the other dragons weren't companions of previous dragonmasters or other people. All two data points we have suggest that dragons are companions, and I don't think a lack of mention in a book means anything. After all, the events of Dragon Song aren't mentioned in the other games. The reason Alex is mentioned so specifically is because he was the last dragonmaster, not because he had a baby dragon for a companion. And recall how familiarly the Blue Dragon in SSSC speaks of Alicia and Laticia, who of course are mentioned in the books. I think it's not at all unlikely that he was their flying cat. And it's not like we can read every book in the libraries...only one per shelf, and sometimes not even that.

This isn't to say that all dragonmasters have dragons, because the apparent age suggests that the dragons wouldn't be replaced as often as the dragonmaster (but do we know how often a dragonmaster is chosen?), but I think it's not an unreasonable hypothesis that all dragons save the first four were companions of humans. Not necessarily dragonmasters, though; we don't know if dragonmasters were usually predicted or if that was unique to Alex. There's nothing in the backstory (or manga) to suggest that Dyne was similarly chosen, though, or that he grew up with one.

I haven't heard of Quark being in this game, but I haven't met the white dragon yet.

[phyco126]

And recall how familiarly the Blue Dragon in SSSC speaks of Alicia and Laticia, who of course are mentioned in the books.

Hehe, if he was their companion, I feel terribly sorry for them. Seriously though, he could have been their companion, but he also thought that Mia was Lemia, that doesn't mean that he was the four hero's companion. Of course that's a flawed thought, I'll admit that. Okay, heres a new theory. He would know the twins because they where Dragonmasters ("ancient" ones at that, which already say that dragons live a long time.) After all, the dragons served the Dragonmaster, so I would automatically assume that the the dragons would be "close" companions of the Dragonmaster.

And quark not being in the game, would certainly be intresting. Since Quark is old enough to have certainly lived during the time of DS.

And do tell how SSSC screwed up what I had said. I never played TSS, so you'll have to feel me in on the differances

Now, it could be possible that Ruby was "asleep." She could have even been born a couple of hundred years after SSSC (since she is still younger than Nall is) but been dorminant until Hiro somehow got ahold of her. That would indeed explain why her history is blank. After all, the Dragons in SSSC where dorment (Ugh, we need a spell checker ) until Alex and Co came along and woke their lazy butts up

(PS. Off topic, but the Blue Dragon mentioned that Ghaleon was Jealous of Dyne and Althena, which of course doesn't exactly go hand in hand with the Ghaleon thinking Althena was crazey for doing what she did. Then again, Ghaleon did kind of "brainwash" Althena, as she did lustfully hang onto him as Dark Althena, so perhapes Ghaleon was jeolous of Dyne and Althena.)

[Alunissage]

Nall didn't change size in TSS. That little bit of nonsense was introduced in EB and has stuck with the other games. In TSS, you get the sword in the Goddess Tower (which is firmly anchored in the ground) and take Myght's airship to get there.

I think the Blue Dragon confusing Mia with Lemia supports that he was not the companion of the Four Heroes, since he would know Lemia much better in that case. But he talks about one of the twins teasing him about something. Granted, he seems to be quite jovial and gregarious for a dragon, but still. Anyway, as I said, my theory is that not every dragonmaster would have a dragon, since there have presumably been more dragonmasters than dragons, but it could be that every dragon may have been the companion of a dragonmaster at some point. Well, until after Alex, anyway.

Re your PS, you're mixing up the two games. In TSS the Blue Dragon was just a spirit and said nothing about Ghaleon being jealous. I don't think anyone else did, either. And I really don't think Ghaleon's jealousy in SSSC was regarding Althena; it was because Dyne was doing something that he couldn't share (and didn't agree with). I can't seem to find my non-sealed copy of the guide, but I'm pretty sure that he says something like "how can you go where I cannot?" in the flashback scene.

Oh, and the word is "dormant".

Now that I think of it, though, I think Ghaleon and/or Nall says something about Ruby not maturing because Ghaleon stole her aura when she was very young. So that does imply that she's not that old. I don't remember if there's any timeframe given for when Ghaleon was revived and Zophar started gathering power.

[Ardekh]

What is it...that you can see...that I canNOT....TELL ME!!!

XD That's my favorite Ghaleon line in the entire movie! Game. Thing.

Anyway, I'd guess that the blue dragon was a companion to the twin Dragonmasters because he said they wanted to rename him to the "Babbling Blue Dragon". Obviously not every Dragonmaster had a dragon, because they're not born as often, like how Dyne didn't have one. But all the dragons probably had a Dragonmaster companion at one point.



Also, I think it would be pretty cool for an evil Dragonmaster that you're fighting against, but isn't it "the power of friendship!" that gets the person to be a Dragonmaster anyway? Because if they tried to do it alone they'd probably just die on the way, and usually evil people don't have any real friends, just minions.

[ilovemyguitar]

One thing I want to add onto the discussion the possibility of every Dragonmaster having a Dragon companion.

In addition to their full-sized Dragon form, fully-grown Dragons are capable of taking the form of a human, and that of a tiny flying cat. In both games, Nall and Ruby revert to their cat-like form after claiming their adulthood out of convenience in travelling. Also, in Lunar 2 the first time you see Nall at the base of Taben's peak, he's in his cat-like form, even though he's now over a thousand years old.

So it's entirely possible for a Dragon to accompany a young hopeful on their journey to become a Dragonmaster, even if they're not still a baby.

[Ardekh]

How is it that Quark lives to be so old, but the non-Ruby red dragon dies at a conveniently young, for a dragon, age? Considering the way Quark looks, he's more than 2,000 years old. I don't see it being possible that there's more than two dragons of one color alive at any time.

If all dragons are like Nall (well, obviously they're not...they decide to be in dragon form all the time...) they stuck with one party, adventure, Dragonmaster, but never just decided to join another group of hopefulls say, 200 years later and be their mascot.

But it could be because there were no Dragonmasters after Alex. So the black dragon of Lunar 2 didn't have a Dragonmaster...

[Aaron]

What I dont understand about the dragons is WHY there are 2 white dragons in TSS and SSSC.

Also you guys are forgeting about the Star Dragon... that mystery...

and speaking of plot holes...if Lucia has been guarding the Blue Star for so long *ever since zophar caused althena to blast it* why do you only JUST discover the tower that teleports you to the blue star in Lunar 2???

IF Althena took the surviors of the blue star to lunar & the 4 dragons WHAT ABOUT THE STAR DRAGON??? aug...irritates me...anyway and the fact that there are 5 dragons when a dragomaster is suppost to control them all and only controls 4... puh.......

yeah...and i think this conversation is pointless...cause if we can find all these plot holes then obviously the own writers/developers aren't even taking this much consideration into the game...ponder that.....

[ilovemyguitar]

I have a sincere question. How do we know that Quark is so old in Lunar 1? I mean, honestly, what are we basing that on? The way he looks? You never see him in any sort of human form. So how does the way he looks in his full-size dragon form explain if he's a relatively old or young dragon? And he's no more or less knowledgable as a dragon than Nall is in Lunar 2.

[GhaleonOne]

What I dont understand about the dragons is WHY there are 2 white dragons in TSS and SSSC.

That was explained better in TSS IMO. I think two dragons of the same color can exist, but the younger one can't claim it's aura until the older one dies. (hmmm, could make an interesting plot, having a younger dragon trying to kill his older counterpart to gain his power).

Also you guys are forgeting about the Star Dragon... that mystery...

I think they could do so much with the Star Dragon's story.

and speaking of plot holes...if Lucia has been guarding the Blue Star for so long *ever since zophar caused althena to blast it* why do you only JUST discover the tower that teleports you to the blue star in Lunar 2???

I'd like to think the Star Dragon Tower and Blue Spire were hidden up in the mountains near the Frontier. Though that doesn't explain why they're not visible in Dragon Song either. Perhaps these places were underwater at that time.

yeah...and i think this conversation is pointless...cause if we can find all these plot holes then obviously the own writers/developers aren't even taking this much consideration into the game...ponder that.....

I severely disagree. It's been said a number of times that they love to leave some of these story area's open to speculation. I don't see any of them as plot holes, just plot points that haven't been explained. There are stories that aren't 100% explained in our own history. Most all cultures have creation and flood legends in our world. Creation legends could be explained away as some need for man to give itself a beginning, but with the flood legends, it's hard to say that about a great flood with similiar idea's in them. However, noone has undeniable proof about the exact events, or even general events. We have legends, stories, myths, but not every person believes the same thing based on it. And we have information left unexplained. What is Stonehenge? Questions about ancient ruins like that. Some of these places could have been underwater, or buried underground. Ancient cities are buried throughout time (there's more than one ancient Jerusalem underneath the current one). Point is, just becuase places are in EB, and aren't in Dragon Song/TSS/SSSC, doesn't mean they didn't exist. They just weren't visible to the main civilization at the time.

Side note: This thread rules. This is why I created these Lunar boards, was to discuss the game stories like this. That's why Lunar rules, because you can speculate on stuff like this so much.

[Ardekh]

yeah...and i think this conversation is pointless...cause if we can find all these plot holes then obviously the own writers/developers aren't even taking this much consideration into the game...ponder that.....

Those are plotholes? You should see how many complaints about Star Wars there are, and most of them aren't even plotholes, and have a simple explanation. (The other ones, you can blame the force). How can you say it's pointless just because it's not canon? It's fun to speculate.

I have a sincere question. How do we know that Quark is so old in Lunar 1?

Look at him.

If Ghaleon didn't kill him, he'd have kicked the bucket in a couple of minutes anyway.

Look at Nall after 1,000 years. Pretty much unchanged. A dragon has to go through a LOT of years to look that old.

I'd be really interested in a game about Quark's adventures as a young, aura-not-yet-claimed dragon with his Dragonmaster.

[ilovemyguitar]

What are you basing is "old" look on though? How many "old" dragons have you seen? Within the Lunar mythology, we haven't ever been presented with a dragon and been told, "hey, this is an OLD dragon." We have seen, at most, eight dragons, if you assume that we're not seeing the same Blue and Black dragons in Lunar 1 and Lunar 2. (And even that's assuming that you go by the SSSC mythology, because you never actually see any living dragons in TSS except Quark and Nall.) With the exception of Nall and Ruby, we're never told where they are in their life cycle.

And on a further note, we don't actually know that Nall has actually aged proportionally to the age he appears in his human form in Lunar 2. I'm sure that a creature with as much magic power as a dragon can choose to look like whatever it wants in human form. So really, it's possible that the day after Alex defeated Ghaleon, Nall took his human form to look exactly how we see him in Lunar 2, and he looked exactly like that for 1000 years.

All I'm saying is that people seem to be making a lot of assumptions as far as the ages of the dragons, when it's really not that clear-cut and defined.

[Angelalex242]

My theory on Star (The Star Dragon) is simple.

Star isn't Althena's Dragon. He's Lucia's Dragon, and only answers to her.

Hence why 'he's not like us other Dragons' as Nall puts it. He's not an Althena Brand Dragon in the first place.

Also, he controls all elements...a feat beyond the scope of the other 4. Then again, Star only has to guard one teleporter. The 4 Dragons have to control a whole planet.

So Lucia could afford to concentrate her power more in a single dragon.

I also state that the Dragon Equipment Hiro finds is not made by the 4 Dragons. It's made by Star. What, you think he can't make stuff? Of course he can. Perhaps not of the same quality as 4 dragons putting their all into one piece of equipment, but the fact remains Star is a stronger Dragon then the 4, and can make a full set.

As for why the Blue Spire and Star Tower are hidden? Well, that's simple too. Star controls all elements. He can cover (or uncover) the two contact points with the Blue Star as he sees fit. When Star felt Zophar coming, he uncovered the Spire and his own residence for the coming battle. Presumably, after Hiro leaves and goes with Lucia to the Blue Star, he'll seal the contact points away again till Lucia tells him otherwise.

Anyways, the Dragonmaster is Althena's boytoy. And Star has nothing to do with Althena, so Star isn't included in the Dragonmaster's power.

Though...

In the future, if Lucia ever ressurrects the Dragonmaster position as she becomes goddess of the Blue Star...

Lucia's Dragonmasters WOULD have to pass all 5 trials...including Star's...before achieving that position.

[Alunissage]

I'm inclined to agree with ilovemyguitar. Quark does indeed look old, but Lucia looks pretty young for being older than Lunar as we know it. Could be that the power used to create a new young dragon aged him prematurely.

In TSS, of course, we see a dragon skeleton. I don't think it's actually said how the black dragon died; I'm pretty sure Dyne just confined him rather than specifically killed him. (Argh, I need to make these posts from my home computer so I can look up the text.) Hah, maybe Nall was supposed to be the replacement black dragon and some strange error occurred.


Re the towers, there's no reason to discover them sooner. The Blue Spire only attracts attention because Lucia uses it to travel. Those lovely stone guardians could even have been a disincentive to explore previously. The Star Dragon tower, of course, is sealed in the same way the Blue Spire is. In EB, you can't get to the sunken tower to get one eye until Nall makes it visible to you, and in EBC the water ruins are, well, covered with water. The Dragon Ruins get sealed by a rock after you leave. So its opening may have been recent too, and without it the towers could not have been opened. Well, only one at most could have been, and the Blue Spire seems to only be usable as transport by Lucia and the Star Dragon would prevent anyone from usng that one anyway. So they may well have been discovered and forgotten again because nothing could be done with them. Although Gwyn's dragon eye presumably came from one somewhere, other than the Dragon Ruins of course.

Edit: It's not actually necessary to state the same theory in three or four places. Most people read all the Lunar game threads.

[phyco126]

How is it that Quark lives to be so old, but the non-Ruby red dragon dies at a conveniently young, for a dragon, age?

Uh, because Ghaleon killed him?

It could be that Quark was aged prematturely. However, I think the fact that he looks old is enough to say that he IS old. He was about to die from age, and perhapes that is why Nall was created/born, to take his place. His voice is old, he looks old, and he is old. Simple as that. I really fail to see how he couldn't be old. Nall is still young, and he looks young in his manifestations. Quark, well, if Dragons can choose what they look like, do you think that Quark would look the way he did?

Also, if dragons can take the shape of a human.... can they reproduce with a human? (Zeus theory ).

And too Alunissage's comment about maybe nall was supposed to be the black dragons replacement. It could have gone like this.

Blackdragon: Awww, he looks so... wait a minute, HE'S WHITE! &#^#$^# WHO'S THE REAL FATHER?!
Althena: I swear, you are, YOU ARE!
Blackdragon: Bull! *Goes insane, Dyne "confines" him*
*meanwhile....*
Quark: W00t! After all these years, I still have it in me!

[ilovemyguitar]

I pretty much agree with Alun about the Lunar 2-specific towers.

The Mystic Ruins are the only thing that really lacks a reasonable explanation is the Mystic Ruins. My personal theory is that Zophar created them for Ghaleon as sort of a home/hovel. He put the record of Ghaleon's "best work" there because Zophar believed it would help motivate Ghaleon to do Zophar's bidding, watching how he was defeated before. But that theory isn't exaactly air-tight, though, because there are no living quarters (that we can see, at least), and the ruins seem like they've been around for a long time. And I guess it's possible that Ghaleon had been around and kickin in his resurrected state for a while prior to the events of Lunar 2, but it seems slightly unnecessary for Zophar's plans.

So, in short, the Mystic Ruins are a mystery.


And as for Quark's looking and sound old, I still think we don't have enough info to deduce that he is, in fact old. I don't look at him and think "old." And I don't believe you hear any other dragons' voices as full-size dragons, so you can't say his voice sounds "old," because the other dragons could very well sound the same.

[Alunissage]

The Mystic Ruins are Taben's tower. I don't remember if this is spelled out, but there are several suggestions of this, such as the viewpoint of the Grindery rolling away from Ruid. The mystery is why there's a seal on the top that only Lucia can open; my best guess on that is that it's something Ghaleon put there using Zophar's power, making it unbreakable to Lemina. (Of course, Ghaleon was also a pure Mazoku, and there likely aren't any of those left in EB's time.)

[ilovemyguitar]

Hey, that makes sense. I can't believe I never thought of that before.