Althenaism

[Angelalex242]

(Let me first state that this topic is intended to be a joke, and not in any way supposed to be serious.)

If you could, would you convert to Althenaism?
If you did, what would you do when you found out Althena is dead?
Would you convert to Luciaism then?
...and would anyone convert to Zopharism instead, a la Fake Althena?


...And what do you believe the tenants of Althenaism to be?
What'd be her 10 commandments?

How, exactly, would Luciaism differ from Althenaism, assuming the two are for the most part the same? Would Luciaism run into conflict with Althenaism?

What would the 10 commandments of Zopharism be?

...And since I started the topic, I get to be High Priest of Luciaism before somebody else takes it.

[phyco126]

Actually, I would imagine Althenaism being no more different than Christianity really (or any other similiar religion.) You have Althena (God) then Lucia (Jesus) then Zophar (Satan) And for kicks, Hiro (Mary Mandaline, the theorist's best friend for accusing Jesus of not being all that pure )

I tend to believe that people would say you will go to hell and burn for eternity because you found out that Althena is dead.

[Kizyr]

If you want an "Althenan Trinity" then that's not much of one. It'd be more accurate to say it's like Althena - Luna - Four Dragons (Holy Spirit). Unholy Trinity might be Zophar - Fake Althena - Four Fiends.

Me? Well... I've always sympathized the most with the people of Cadin. Althena forgot about them, so less importance was placed on her than on mere survival.

***Spoiler for Dragon Song***
[spoiler]Though, one wonders why the humans in Lind Village (Flora, Peres) have a favourable opinion of her. The Frontier is still where Althena sends those who stir up chaos and foment rebellion. The Vile Tribe there seem to view Althena as irrelevant.[/spoiler]

May not want to check that one. KF

[phyco126]

No, I wasn't talking about a Holy Trinity, I was just comparing who would be considered what. Dragonmasters would be profits, magic would probably be the Holy Spirit, and Dragons... they're angels

[Alunissage]

Ugh. I don't think I like this topic at all. I HATED how SSSC and EB/EBC turned the worship of Althena into some bad Christendom clone. The remoteness and austerity of the temples and shrines in TSS was one of my favorite bits of atmosphere, and the changes really bothered me and greatly lessened the enjoyment I could have in the rest of the series.

It's hard for me to even consider this kind of question given my beliefs and the difficulty of thinking something about myself which isn't true/real, but I could see entering a temple in TSS and studying to become a priestess. Not in any of the other games. And I can't begin to imagine how Lucia could ever measure up and be considered a goddess.

And I still think there's a reason for Cadin to be there that does not contradict Althena's image, and that Ghaleon was to blame for keeping them there. Heck, given how drastically the geography changes in only a thousand years that part of the world could have just slowly drifted out of the Light.

[phyco126]

Well, at least Althena wouldn't cast you in hell for loving someone (which I'm sure is another sin, but whatever.)

[DevNall]

And I can't begin to imagine how Lucia could ever measure up and be considered a goddess.

I suspect, as has happened on Earth in other cases before, Lucia would ask people not to worship her, but it'd end up happening (atleast with some people and maybe much later) anyway.

[Alunissage]

Well, at least Althena wouldn't cast you in hell for loving someone (which I'm sure is another sin, but whatever.)

Phyco, was that really necessary? You're showing a bit of a bias there.

For one thing, we don't know if there'd be any concept relating to what most religions that call themselves Christian consider to be hell in the context of Althena worship, nor do we know her official policy on various moral issues. So you really have no basis to make that statement as I'm guessing you intend it. (And even though I really don't want to get into this discussion, I'll add that it's unlikely that any religion teaches that it's bad to love someone else, in the purely emotional sense.)

[phyco126]

Heh, you know, the fact that I know alot of people who have this "everything is a sin, and if you don't believe what I believe, you're going to hell" attitude. I've easily come to the conclussion that religion as a whole is rediculas and evil. Don't get me wrong, I still believe in God (and have been told many times that I'm either an atheist or I don't believe in the same God as Christians do, which is total nonsense, but whatever.) I also respect the integrity of other religions, it's mostly religion as a whole that I find evil (of course, I suppose that's a whole other discussion.)

Regardless, I suppose your right that it wasn't necessary to say that, and for that I apologize.

[Kizyr]

Heh, you know, the fact that I know alot of people who have this "everything is a sin, and if you don't believe what I believe, you're going to hell" attitude. I've easily come to the conclussion that religion as a whole is rediculas and evil.

You know, you're still allowing your opinion of a large, large group of people to be affected by a small minority. It's about as if I said that because I've ran into many racist white people, I believe white skin as a whole is evil. I'm not going to get into the whole reasoning behind "I don't like Christianity, therefore I don't like all religions" thing, though.

Ugh. I don't think I like this topic at all. I HATED how SSSC and EB/EBC turned the worship of Althena into some bad Christendom clone. The remoteness and austerity of the temples and shrines in TSS was one of my favorite bits of atmosphere, and the changes really bothered me and greatly lessened the enjoyment I could have in the rest of the series.

I think you still might be reading too much into that from initial displeasure with the change in SSSC.

The background's always had a Greco-Roman aspect to it. It was more like seeing Althena as having the same status as, say, Athena in Rome or Isis among the Cult of Isis. With EB, it still seemed like that, particularly with the discussion of other 'gods' leading to the idea of an entire pantheon--which drew plenty from Greco-Roman, Japanese, and Hindu sources.

With SSSC, I felt like it was drifting about to where Rome might've been in that little segue between paganism (strictest sense of the word) and Christianity. I'm sure during that time a lot of ideas about the 'old guard' gods were affected by the ideas of the ever-increasing monotheistic population. But, SSSC is the only place I really saw that happened (and, to a lesser extent, Dragon Song). EBC kind of reverses it with introducing a pantheon, plus the corruption of the Cult of Althena.

You know, maybe I should do a bit more research into the Cult of Isis to see if there are any similarities there. KF

[drumlord]

Heh, you know, the fact that I know alot of people who have this "everything is a sin, and if you don't believe what I believe, you're going to hell" attitude. I've easily come to the conclussion that religion as a whole is rediculas and evil. Don't get me wrong, I still believe in God (and have been told many times that I'm either an atheist or I don't believe in the same God as Christians do, which is total nonsense, but whatever.) I also respect the integrity of other religions, it's mostly religion as a whole that I find evil (of course, I suppose that's a whole other discussion.)

Regardless, I suppose your right that it wasn't necessary to say that, and for that I apologize.

You apologize for the first one after spouting this nonsense? Who's going to apologize for this?

I know a lot of those "you're going to hell" people as well. And there ARE a lot of them out there, probably millions. But guess what. They're WRONG. These are Christians we're talking about here, and the only person that can push you towards heaven or hell in Christianity is you. You are the one that chooses to believe whether or not Christ died for you sins, etc.

But let's take an extremely stupid hypothetical here. Christianity is evil (again, just for this point). Just because one religion is evil doesn't mean they ALL are. But now out of the hypothetical, there are really only a handful of "evil" religions out there. Supposing one religion is right and every other one is wrong, that doesn't make the rest evil; it just makes them incorrect.

Now as for you believing in God, the way you phrase it ("total nonsense") you act like the Christian God is the only possible one. That's not entirely true. Besides that there are other monotheistic religions, faith is entirely personal anyway. If you choose to believe that there is one God named Randy Smorebogs and he lives in Alabama, you can. There's no rule out there that says to have a faith it MUST fall in line with an accepted religion exactly. Faith is a VERY personal thing. It's what you choose to believe. If you haven't learned it yet, you'll eventually grow to learn that your faith is your business. And that you shouldn't let it bother you that people might question what you believe in. After all, if you truly believe in it, you also believe that the people who are questioning it are wrong. But I would advise not being an ass and telling them so.

Lastly, as an addendum. Some people find that they don't like organized religion, which is different than not liking religion at all. Like I said, faith is very personal and some people choose to practice their faith by themselves.

Edit: And Phyco, what I said to Alun about bringing your opinions on real life religions goes double for you as you are calling them all evil. Make your own thread about it if you want to rant.

[Angelalex242]

...Sigh. I made this topic in the spirit of fun, and it got all serious. Right, back to my original point.

Let's start with Althenaism. What do you think her 10 commandments would be?

(Sidenote...if you don't LIKE the topic, don't post in it! And no RL religions should be entering this debate!)

Edit:As for Lucia as goddess...all that matters to the average joe as concernes a deity is, 'can she or can she not look out for me?' As long as Lucia does things like, for example, helping Neo Vane land gently, or freeing Raculi from Zophar's blood, she'll get worshippers. Especially as, on the Blue Star when mortals FINALLY get back, Althena won't really be an issue anymore. It'll be Lucia or nothin'.

[Kizyr]

Moratorium on all real-world religion discussion
Ok... I'm gonna agree with Angelalex here (for once {^^}).
This is an entirely fictional topic. The only reason that any talk about real-world religions should enter into it is if and only if it has some kind of relevance to the subject we're talking. For instance, bringing up some Greco-Roman influences (like the Athena - Althena link), or perhaps the Catholic / Orthodox structure of some of the shrines to Althena, or maybe the presence of Biblical names in Dragon Song.

Any talk about what real-world religions themselves do or don't believe, that doesn't belong in this thread. Feel free to edit out your own posts--it's not necessary, but feel free to do that (if you can't, PM me and I'll edit out what you want).
_____________________________________________

Ok, now that that's done, we can get back to the fun.

If I were in the Lunar world, I can't quite say if the whole Althena concept would jive with me. I'm big on free will, so I'd see it all from an objective standpoint, but (at least during TSS's time) I wouldn't much like the idea of Althena interfering with everything and being the only source of magic.

Now, once it gets to the "Power of Humanity" business, then it's all good.

Anyway, I don't really see there being a '10 Commandments' -style rule system with Althena in it. With the only exception of the Cult of Althena in EB (which was corrupt anyway), it seems a lot more free-form. KF

[Angelalex242]

Point, on the commandments.

In SSSC, I recall that most people seem to honor Althena with song, and suchlike. If there was any real 'orders', it'd probably be something like the Golden Rule+Don't forget to sing to me a lot.

It's only in EBC where they have commandments, and the most notable one seems to be 'thou shalt donate!' Of course, that's really a commandment of Zopharism, so.

It is true, however, that Althena was the source of everything, and by her own words, humanity was 'too dependant on her'. Therefore, one would assume in a Dragon Song Era, humanity is still in the height of its dependence on her. As she also says, humanity lacked a sense of pride and a sense of self...so, presumably, that means back in the day, if somebody did something really great, they'd go 'Oh, Althena must have inspired me to greatness, all thanks to the Goddess.'

[Sonic#]

Hmmmm.

I would probably be the type of person that wuold just adore Althena for her beauty. Ideally, I'd want to become a sculptor of her statues, trying to capture the perfect look for her. She would inspire me to build better and greater buildings, though at the same time, I would do the acts for my love of them.

I might become sort of like Myght also, minus the smell.

Otherwise... I tend to view Althena as someone that was there. A belief that was at least partially tangible. One could live indifferently to her, but was reminded of her presence in expressions, in the use of magic, in legend, and in song.

[Angelalex242]

Right. One of the big things about Lunar is...you can PROVE Althena exists. (Or at least, you could before she died.)

And you can likewise prove Lucia exists.

And Zophar certainly proved himself existent.

You can prove the Dragons exist. Anyone with enough to skill in combat can go down into their caves through the tons of monsters and say hi.

I think nonbelievers would be rarer, until you got to the point where people declare Althena dead and Lucia not a valid replacement, and that'd be the birth of atheism, I suppose.

[ilovemyguitar]

Well, I'm lovin the idea that the people of Lunar would eventually worship Lucia in Althena's absence.

What do you think Lucia would think if she came back to Lunar and found a whole religion had sprung up from her time there? If after all she had learned about the power of humanity, humans refused to believe in their own power and instead regarded Lucia as their protector? It would probably be a bitter pill for her to swallow.

[Angelalex242]

...Something to base a whole game off of.

That's especially likely if the people of Lunar figure out Althena is dead. See, people might hear 'Althena's Dead' and forget Althena's dead cause she believes in people.

So, naturally, they'd turn to the only other dieific being left...the Goddess of the Blue Star.

The whole new religion might be centred the 'Savior who will lead us to our eternal home' or something like that.

It's logical, though. If, after being 'too dependant on Althena'...well, the lazier elements in humanity might just switch their dependence to the goddess who still exists. Who can presumably still answer their prayers. Who, in many ways, DID answer prayers in the main game.

The Children Nall raises at Taben's peak will remember the warm goddess who comforted them so long ago, perhaps becoming a new generation of priests. Nall (and Ruby) might try to curb this, but there's only so much he (they) can do.

Likewise, Neo Vane/Zarback and Raculi have direct cause to thank her.

Heh. Deleted footage from Luna's message at the goddess tower. "Oh, and watch out for allowing yourself to become my replacement...humanity might just latch on to you..."

[segaboy7]

what about the the people who only believe in the power of humanity, does that make them an atheist type person?

[Angelalex242]

First, there wouldn't be any people like that till it's proven Althena is dead. It's too easy to prove Althena exists while she's still alive. Believing in the power of humanity isn't truly possible till Althena dies...which is why she chose to die, of course.

But hmm. I'm not sure.

It's definitely what Althena wanted her children to do, though...so I wonder if doing what she wanted humanity to do insults her memory...or honors it.