Soviet Uni... erm, Russia

[phyco126]

So Russia invaded Georgia and has threatened to attack Poland if the US set's up ANY part of the missle defense shield there. What are your thoughts?

[Werefrog]

In Soviet Russia, Georgia invades you.

Sorry, it's a little early in the thread for a Russian Reversal, but you knew that was going to happen eventually.

[Kizyr]

Russia isn't going to attack Poland.

South Ossetia has been a breakaway province for a while now, and things are just coming to a head.

Also, it's still uncertain who's the aggressor here: is it Russia invading Georgia, or was it Georgia cracking down on South Ossetia and Russia simply responded? KF

[Ozone]

In Soviet Russia, road forks you.


It's a complex situation. The area used to be part of Georgia if I'm not mistaken or somesuch.

[Kizyr]

In Soviet Russia, road forks you.
It's a complex situation. The area used to be part of Georgia if I'm not mistaken or somesuch.

South Ossetia is part of Georgia. The fact that Russia invaded a part of Georgia isn't disputed. It's whether or not Russia had justification in doing so. South Ossetia has been autonomous for years and there's been pressure to break away from Georgia since the Soviet Union split up. KF

[exigence]

Are you guys talking about metal gear solid?

[phyco126]

Are you guys talking about metal gear solid?

Huh? Um, no?

Kiz, I dunno. I doubt that Russian response on this scale is appropiate, but I'm not exactly screaming for them to pull out (WWIII needs to hurry!) It's one thing to pummle Georgia for their attack on South Ossetia, it's another to launch an invasion and head into the heart of their country (and to their capital). Has the Russians pulled back yet? I know last I checked the Russians said they where pulling back while still pushing towards Tblisi.

[Parn]

My analysis: Georgia made the first move. They used the opening ceremonies of the Olympics for cover as they went into South Ossetia, killing 12 and injuring over 150 Russian peace keepers that were in South Ossetia by UN mandate before this conflict erupted. Georgia was completely in the wrong.

Russia retaliated in the way a sleeping bear would retaliate if some pesky human walked into its cave and kicked it in the face. Their attack upon Georgia was disproportionate and excessive, but that's Russia for you. They basically stopped just short of invoking a regime change in the country... approaching the line that was not to be crossed, and then pissed over the line out of spite.

I'm hardly in Russia's court since I'm not a fan of war in any sense, but the media seems to be in love with this idea that Georgia is the victim just because it's a Democracy and its vunerable. That's crap. They initiated hostilities.

[phyco126]

They initiated hostilities in their own country, sure a few Russians where hurt.

In some ways, I love the idea that Russia did what they did. I mean, you hear of a peace keeper dyeing in Africa so all 50 bazillion of them pull out. Russia just sent more in and whooped their arses hard core. THAT is what I'm talking about.

On the flip side, it was still part of Georgia. De Facto independence doesn't mean much if no nation accepts it.

I do think that Russia is just doing this to make a statement to the world and to revive their old Soviet conquest ways. Thus far, they have done almost everything I said they would when the fighting first broke the news. The only thing that hasn't been done is a change in government by force.

In other news, I have heard some say that if Georgia was in NATO already then they would have NATO's military support. HAH! I doubt that, NATO is paralyzed against Russia and I HIGHLY doubt that NATO would have the guts to retaliate.

[Kizyr]

South Ossetia is one of those political grey zones. It functions as a separate country, but isn't quite recognized as one and tries to just be left alone. Much like Somaliland, Xinjiang (Uighyrstan), and Taiwan. So, many South Ossetians view Georgia as the primary aggressor here. Additionally, Russian forces are in Georgia itself, past South Ossetia, so they've definitely transgressed into Georgian territory no matter how you look at it.

Again, the question is whether they were justified in doing so, and, if their response was measured or overdone.

From what I've been able to gather, they likely were justified. But their response has been overboard, and I think they've badly been losing the PR war here.

I do think that Russia is just doing this to make a statement to the world and to revive their old Soviet conquest ways. Thus far, they have done almost everything I said they would when the fighting first broke the news. The only thing that hasn't been done is a change in government by force.

In some sense there may be a point there, but mostly I don't think that's the case. I think it's a matter of Russia not being used to having to justify its actions internationally.

By the way, Russia has signed to the cease-fire and will begin pulling its troops out next Monday. This isn't some full-on invasion; it's an incursion. Making Cold War analogies only works up to a point, but the reality is that Russia is behaving like any other sovereign nation, not like the USSR.

I'm hardly in Russia's court since I'm not a fan of war in any sense, but the media seems to be in love with this idea that Georgia is the victim just because it's a Democracy and its vunerable. That's crap. They initiated hostilities.

Yeah the way media's been going on this is interesting. I really like the BBC, but when the conflict first started, it was a bit apparent that they had an anti-Russian bias. I've found London Financial Times to be more evenhanded.

Couple of good articles:
FT - Conflict refugees tell different story
BBC - Russia pledge on withdrawal

[phyco126]

South Ossetia is one of those political grey zones. It functions as a separate country, but isn't quite recognized as one and tries to just be left alone. Much like Somaliland, Xinjiang (Uighyrstan), and Taiwan. So, many South Ossetians view Georgia as the primary aggressor here. Additionally, Russian forces are in Georgia itself, past South Ossetia, so they've definitely transgressed into Georgian territory no matter how you look at it.

Again, the question is whether they were justified in doing so, and, if their response was measured or overdone.

From what I've been able to gather, they likely were justified. But their response has been overboard, and I think they've badly been losing the PR war here.

I do think that Russia is just doing this to make a statement to the world and to revive their old Soviet conquest ways. Thus far, they have done almost everything I said they would when the fighting first broke the news. The only thing that hasn't been done is a change in government by force.

In some sense there may be a point there, but mostly I don't think that's the case. I think it's a matter of Russia not being used to having to justify its actions internationally.

By the way, Russia has signed to the cease-fire and will begin pulling its troops out next Monday. This isn't some full-on invasion; it's an incursion. Making Cold War analogies only works up to a point, but the reality is that Russia is behaving like any other sovereign nation, not like the USSR.

I'm hardly in Russia's court since I'm not a fan of war in any sense, but the media seems to be in love with this idea that Georgia is the victim just because it's a Democracy and its vunerable. That's crap. They initiated hostilities.

Yeah the way media's been going on this is interesting. I really like the BBC, but when the conflict first started, it was a bit apparent that they had an anti-Russian bias. I've found London Financial Times to be more evenhanded.

Couple of good articles:
FT - Conflict refugees tell different story
BBC - Russia pledge on withdrawal

It was an invasion. It was an incursion. They are both practically the same. So where is this Monday withdrawl? They've only inched closer to Tblisi.

Oh, right, now the withdrawl is on FRIDAY. OOOOooooo.

So a country that has nuclear weapons, a massive military, and is well known for it's brutality in times of war, invades a country the size of West Virginia with the population just under that of Colorado. Yeah, any world power will do that.

Of course, if you want to say "some" nations, then I can understand that.

Russia is just cock slapping Georgia for good measure.

Not that I'm hating on Russia, or screaming that they need to withdrawl, but come on. They're being pricks. I am, however disappointed that they are withdrawling. SO much for my World War.

[Kizyr]

It was an invasion. It was an incursion. They are both practically the same. So where is this Monday withdrawl? They've only inched closer to Tblisi.

An invasion requires conquering another nation, replacing their government, that sort of thing. This is only a limited incursion for a specific purpose. The specific terms aren't what's important; it's the fact that Russia isn't trying to conquer anyone--they're only responding to a specific threat.

So a country that has nuclear weapons, a massive military, and is well known for it's brutality in times of war, invades a country the size of West Virginia with the population just under that of Colorado. Yeah, any world power will do that.

Funny. We sort of did the same thing with Afghanistan. Of course, we're a lot better at PR.

Seriously, there's no appropriate analogy to the Cold War here. KF

[phyco126]

Funny. We sort of did the same thing with Afghanistan. Of course, we're a lot better at PR.

Of course, if you want to say "some" nations, then I can understand that.

Already alluded to us . Of course, Afghanistan is a poor example. We didn't send in tanks and thousands of troops. We just bombed the hell out of it until the Northern Alliance overthrew the Taliban. Maybe the media isn't picking up on this in Georgia, but I don't recall the Georgian government as forcing women to wear burkas and rape them and kill men for not shaving. The Taliban, although doing nothing wrong to us other than sheltering Bin Laden, isn't exactly a government I will cry for.

Now Iraq on the other hand... that could probably be a better example.

You have to look at the bigger picture regardless. Russia has begun reflying bombers off the coast of Alaska. They are flexing their military muscles and trying to bully former satellite states. So Russia withdrew... but happened to to withdraw to an extended border of the break away provinces. This cuts away land from Georgia, and the new border hits somewhere along the main East-West highway, so at anytime they want Russia has to mearly close the road down and isolate the Capital from the rest of the nation.

Russia wants a change in government, they want a pro-Russian one.

[Kizyr]

Already alluded to us . Of course, Afghanistan is a poor example. We didn't send in tanks and thousands of troops. We just bombed the hell out of it until the Northern Alliance overthrew the Taliban. Maybe the media isn't picking up on this in Georgia, but I don't recall the Georgian government as forcing women to wear burkas and rape them and kill men for not shaving. The Taliban, although doing nothing wrong to us other than sheltering Bin Laden, isn't exactly a government I will cry for.

Forgotten war much?

No wonder soldiers who serve in Afghanistan get the feeling they've been forgotten. We do have thousands of troops and tanks in Afghanistan. I run into just as many soldiers coming back from tours of duty there as from Iraq.

Iraq is a poor example; Afghanistan is a perfect one. There was some justification for going after them (the government was sheltering an organization that had just attacked us). We responded. We didn't just "bomb the hell out of them until the Northern Alliance took over". I'm not sure what version of events you're operating under--since you think we don't even have that many troops over there right now--so I really don't know where to begin with explaining how inaccurate you are. I still have misgivings about either war being justified, but there are at least reasons behind one of them.

You have to look at the bigger picture regardless. Russia has begun reflying bombers off the coast of Alaska. They are flexing their military muscles and trying to bully former satellite states. So Russia withdrew... but happened to to withdraw to an extended border of the break away provinces. This cuts away land from Georgia, and the new border hits somewhere along the main East-West highway, so at anytime they want Russia has to mearly close the road down and isolate the Capital from the rest of the nation.

Russia wants a change in government, they want a pro-Russian one.

And your point is what? You stated a bunch of things, and then ended on something unrelated. I'm not sure you're forming a coherent argument yet, so you might want to restate it... KF

[phyco126]

Already alluded to us . Of course, Afghanistan is a poor example. We didn't send in tanks and thousands of troops. We just bombed the hell out of it until the Northern Alliance overthrew the Taliban. Maybe the media isn't picking up on this in Georgia, but I don't recall the Georgian government as forcing women to wear burkas and rape them and kill men for not shaving. The Taliban, although doing nothing wrong to us other than sheltering Bin Laden, isn't exactly a government I will cry for.

Forgotten war much?

No wonder soldiers who serve in Afghanistan get the feeling they've been forgotten. We do have thousands of troops and tanks in Afghanistan. I run into just as many soldiers coming back from tours of duty there as from Iraq.

I never said anything about our current troop numbers in Afghanistan. I said when the war in Afghanistan occured, we sure as hell didn't have a massive amount of troops. We litterally, bombed the crap out of them until the Northern Alliance retook (most of) the nation. Yes, we had troops in there towards the end, and smaller special ops forces assisting here and there, but we didn't exactly have 15 thousand troops and hundreds of tanks pushing deep into Afghanistan in the first months of the war.

"The U.S. and the UK led the aerial bombing campaign, with ground forces supplied primarily by the Afghan Northern Alliance. In 2002, American, British and Canadian infantry were committed, along with special forces from several allied nations. Later, NATO troops were added." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afg ... 93present)

The first main US force didn't arrive until the end of November. "Meanwhile, the first significant U.S. combat troops had arrived. Nearly 1,000 Marines, ferried in by CH-53E Super Stallion helicopters, set up a Forward Operating Base known as Camp Rhino in the desert south of Kandahar on November 25." http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/War_in_Afg ... f_Kandahar

And Iraq is a far better example. Tiny nation, small military. We invade with tens of thousands, if not over 100,000 soldiers and hundreds, if not thousands of tanks. I'm not looking at the reasons for it, and even if we did look at the reasons, what reason did Russia use to justify their campaign? A handful of peacekeepers/soldiers killed? Hell, I was all for retaliation strikes. I knew Russia was gonna go in anyway, but bombing and shelling would have been more than enough.

And your point is what? You stated a bunch of things, and then ended on something unrelated. I'm not sure you're forming a coherent argument yet, so you might want to restate it... KF

My point is, Russia has begun doing things that they used to do during the Cold War.

My other point is, they don't have to conquer Georgia to get what they want. They want a pro-Russian government. By extending the borders of the two break-away regions, they chipped land away from an already tiny nation. They also have check points on their main highway, and can easily put a strangle hold on Tbilsi if they wanted. The more the people suffer because the President started the war, the more they will be willing to oust him. I'm fairly certain that Russia will have no problems with that. They already said they wanted him out of the government and tried for war crimes/genocide.

[Kizyr]

I never said anything about our current troop numbers in Afghanistan. I said when the war in Afghanistan occured, we sure as hell didn't have a massive amount of troops. We litterally, bombed the crap out of them until the Northern Alliance retook (most of) the nation. Yes, we had troops in there towards the end, and smaller special ops forces assisting here and there, but we didn't exactly have 15 thousand troops and hundreds of tanks pushing deep into Afghanistan in the first months of the war.

Excellent points, all of them. You're right; I see what you mean now.

And Iraq is a far better example. Tiny nation, small military. We invade with tens of thousands, if not over 100,000 soldiers and hundreds, if not thousands of tanks. I'm not looking at the reasons for it, and even if we did look at the reasons, what reason did Russia use to justify their campaign? A handful of peacekeepers/soldiers killed? Hell, I was all for retaliation strikes. I knew Russia was gonna go in anyway, but bombing and shelling would have been more than enough.

Given that, I'd have to say the comparison (in the way that you frame it) does make sense. Although, it makes sense up to the point of the invasion itself.

Unlike the US with Iraq, I don't think Russia has any intentions of invading and forcing a regime change in Georgia. They may start pushing for South Ossetian independence, but given the way this conflict has gone, I don't see them turning into an occupying force like we've done with Iraq. (Though, to be fair, our stated intentions prior to the war was that we wouldn't become an occupying force; though I think any reasonable person should've been able to tell that was necessary given what we were trying to accomplish... but that's another issue altogether.)

That being said, given the last point you made, I agree that they're definitely trying to exert their influence over their neighbors. And, this is bearing a lot of similarity to their foreign policy towards some of the other former Soviet republics. But I don't think it's anywhere near the same level as what the USSR did. KF

EDIT: Did I say they 'may' start pushing for South Ossetian independence? Scratch that. They already are:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/7582181.stm

This is gonna turn out... interesting. KF

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

Can I get a TL:DR version of what's going on?

[phyco126]

Can I get a TL:DR version of what's going on?

Wha?

Kiz, I knew that was gonna happen. Now the interesting is this: Kosovo declears independence and the West is quick to recognize it as a new nation, but Russia claims it an illegal move. Now Russia does the same for South Ossetian and Abkhazia, and the west is quick to declear the move as illegal. Heh, I love world politics.

I am curious, does this recognition include the new administrative borders that Russia decleared following the war?