*LOLROFLOMGOMG!!1111 HAHAHAHHEHEHEBWAHAHAHAH LOLOLOLOLOL*

[CatsWithMatches]

Certainly a valid point. The idea here is that things that you're born with are not choices.

(If I'm remembering my catholic upbringing correctly, all sin is voluntary, i.e. something you have to choose to do)

The issue here is whether homosexuality is a choice, or something that is inborn. This is much debate over this. Some (not all) christians perceive it as a choice, because they believe that god wouldn't create someone who is gay. Of course, that idea certainly doesn't explain things that we know people are born with, like predispositions for depression, or down syndrome.

I believe it's something that is inborn. A gay friend of mine once summed it up perfectly, "Look at all the persecution we face. Who would choose this?"

[phyco126]

Yes, I do agree that Alunissage has made a valid point, however, homosexuality doesn't harm anyone or even themselves aside from the persecution they recieve from others. To commit suicide or bodily harm does harm one self or someone else. I would know, when 80% of your debt is hospital bills... you tend to know a few things from it.

However, my point is why should you be punished for something you cannot help be be? I don't exactly think it's fair or even right that someone who was born with a major mental illness should go to hell for commiting suicide. People born with no soul, well, that's a finer point I guess, so I'll stay clear for now.

[Sonic#]

Perhaps if I ever saw a non-hedonistic, non-relativistic argument in favor of homosexual acts I might be inclined to agree. I haven't. Please point me toward one.

I wonder how you'll respond to TaoTeCheese, but until then...

I was reading this epistolary debate between an older and younger feminist. The older one was complaining that the new generation hadn't created a torch to rally around, and the young one retorted to this effect, "Well, that's not exactly true. We find our own torch, only to be told, 'You call *that* a torch?' " It was rather amusing for me.

Also, because I get a kick out of them, despite Ayn Rand's own blatant bias, Objectivism would have nothing to object to homosexuality. And it has objectiv- in the name! Of course, I'm amused by them for other reasons.

I don't want to insult anyone here, so please don't take it that way; I'm just looking at the recent comments from Phyco and G1. Regarding an inborn tendency from birth -- who is to say that everything we're born with is necessarily good? What about, oh, kleptomania? What about a genetic predisposition toward depression that might make one try to commit suicide? (That was the case with a friend of mine; he didn't find out until after he was resuscitated from his suicide attempt and in recovery that there was a family history of depression.) What about OCD that results in scrubbing the skin off one's hands? These are strong, inborn desires and compulsions in the people who have these conditions, but that doesn't mean they should be exercising them. It's not an exact analogy, but I'm just trying to say that that it's inborn isn't necessarily a valid argument for it not being wrong.

You're right. With homosexuality being inborn (assuming it is)... what is natural isn't always right. So functional views that would accept homosexuality would have to approach it from another angle, perhaps a more positive one than, "Well, I was born with it. Shuckins." One would have to be neutral to the act and the desire, and not simply how that desire came into being.

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

i wanna know why people who believe homosexuality is a sin don't just leave them alone. is it christian to bring physical or psychological pain to someone who you already believe will endure an eternity of pain?

even IF we find out that it is a matter of how you grew up, how much farther are we getting into this debate? isn't the whole argument about if people decide it on their own? showing it isn't there at birth still doesn't mean that gays sit there one day and say "ya know what i wanna do? something gay!"

[phyco126]

i wanna know why people who believe homosexuality is a sin don't just leave them alone. is it christian to bring physical or psychological pain to someone who you already believe will endure an eternity of pain?

I'm sure I'm gonna make a lot of people mad, but, I don't care, because it's freaking true. The problem is that the bible does say that we should help people stay clear of sin and help them repent if they do sin, and to help them find God and accept him and Jesus. What this translates to, unfortunately, is a whole new belief of "If they sin, they are going to hell, so I will tell them this, and dog on them until they change their evil ways, because if I don't do everything in my power to do this, I too will burn in hell!"

If you value your life, don't say that what I just said is BS. Just kidding on the life thing, but I do not BS with this crap. I've seen it and been directly told it by the more, err, I want to say nutcases but that'll make no friends, so instead I'll stick to the "insanely devoted" term.

[GhaleonOne]

go to hell for commiting suicide.

Just for the record, phyco, as a Christian, I do not believe this is true. There is no basis for it (and as far as I understand, it was just something the church made up hundreds of years ago to deter people from commiting suicide in hard times - something that at the time, was really meant to be helpful and keep people from commiting suicide during times when life wasn't so great for the common folk).

Don't get me wrong, I do view suicide as a sin. In fact, I view it on the same scale as murder, because, in all reality, that's what it is. But even murder itself doesn't automatically buy you a one way ticket to hell in my book. There's always a darker side to a suicide story, and until you understand what a person was going through, to just up and say "they're in hell because they committed suicide" makes no sense, and I also don't believe it's a Christian thing to believe. There's not even a biblical basis behind it, and believe me, I've looked.

Oh, and just to go even further out on a limb... I believe I'll be chillin' in heaven with Eric (a homosexual) and Coley (a suicide) someday. Just based on my conversations with them over the past 10 years.

[Alunissage]

The issue here is whether homosexuality is a choice, or something that is inborn. This is much debate over this. Some (not all) christians perceive it as a choice, because they believe that god wouldn't create someone who is gay. Of course, that idea certainly doesn't explain things that we know people are born with, like predispositions for depression, or down syndrome.

That's not quite what I was getting at. What I'm saying is that there are other inborn tendencies that we don't want people to act on -- we treat depression and try to keep people who have it from suicide; we don't see stealing as right just because it's a kleptomaniac doing it. It doesn't become not-wrong just because it's a compulsion that one did not choose to have.

Again, not wishing to insult anyone, just saying why homosexuality being genetically predetermined, if it is, may still not be enough of an argument to those who consider it wrong to think otherwise. Also, the bit about "god wouldn't create someone who is gay" was what I was getting at with the comment about imperfection: not one of us today was created by God from scratch as he did the first (perfect) human couple, and we have traits that he didn't put in the model. It probably took several generations of cumulative imperfection to produce someone with eyesight as bad as mine, for example.

[JWL]

Here's an objective standard: Things that a person does that infringe upon the rights of others are wrong, and things that a person does that don't infringe upon the rights of others are acceptable. By this objective standard, just about all sexual acts between consenting adults are acceptable.

I think I've heard of that standard before; I'm pretty sure it was called "Hedonism". In other words we're right back where we started. Very well, I will accept that homosexual acts can be viewed as objectively not sinful by Hedonists who... don't believe in sin in the first place.

The issue here is whether homosexuality is a choice, or something that is inborn.

That has very little to do with anything. The Catholic Church doesn't say that homosexuality is a choice, but still says that homosexual acts are sinful. Heterosexuality isn't a choice, but obviously there are many heterosexual acts which are also sinful, and many of them are far worse than homosexual acts (eg, rape, adultery).

A gay friend of mine once summed it up perfectly, "Look at all the persecution we face. Who would choose this?"

Bisexuals do, apparently.

Yeah I know, it sickens me to be honest. Like in I think it was northern UK or ireland, nuns there that ran orphanages abused the children and used them as slaves, starved them, it was horrible, because the children where sinners because their parents left them.

Anyone who abuses children or treats sick people badly isn't living according to the Gospels.

i wanna know why people who believe homosexuality is a sin don't just leave them alone. is it christian to bring physical or psychological pain to someone who you already believe will endure an eternity of pain?

Homosexuality is not a sin; homosexual acts are sins. It is Christian to allow people to take part in sinful acts which will cause them to endure an eternity of pain? Furthermore, most Christians I know would be perfectly happy to leave homosexuals alone if they would leave the definition of marriage alone.

There is no basis for it (and as far as I understand, it was just something the church made up hundreds of years ago to deter people from commiting suicide in hard times - something that at the time, was really meant to be helpful and keep people from commiting suicide during times when life wasn't so great for the common folk).

Actually there is a perfect basis for it, if you believe in the Seven Sacraments, which obviously not all Christians do. If you are in a state of mortal sin (separation from God) and you do not go to Confession before you die, then you're really pushing your luck. However, we Catholics do entrust victims of suicide to God's mercy, and have faith that He who can act beyond the Sacraments can save such people.

[CatsWithMatches]

I think I've heard of that standard before; I'm pretty sure it was called "Hedonism". In other words we're right back where we started. Very well, I will accept that homosexual acts can be viewed as objectively not sinful by Hedonists who... don't believe in sin in the first place.

Whoa! Slow down with the jumping-to-conclusions. I never once said, or implied, hedonism, nor said I didn't believe in sin.

Relativism may be a slippery slope, but it is not impossible (or hard) to find your footing.

Bisexuals do, apparently.

No, they don't. They fall in love with who they fall in love with, regardless of gender.

Anyone who abuses children or treats sick people badly isn't living according to the Gospels.

I agree completely. This, however, at various points in history (some recent) includes the church.

Furthermore, most Christians I know would be perfectly happy to leave homosexuals alone if they would leave the definition of marriage alone.

POP! You just had to open that can of worms, didn't you. I am married. If two guys (or gals) get married, how on earth does that affect MY marriage?

[Ozone]

The problems with not allowing gay people to marry is that then the state fails to be secular. While I would not argue that America (the populace) is largely non-secular, I would argue that it is not Christian, therefore, the government must maintain some semblance of secularity. We're supposed to be a melting pot, remember? Marriage now can be a state/legal affair as opposed to just a religious one. In my opinion, and this may be offensive to you, but I honestly am beyond caring, I've heard way too much about this in the past four years, if you're against gay marriage, shut up and don't get one

[CatsWithMatches]

Furthermore, most Christians I know would be perfectly happy to leave homosexuals alone if they would leave the definition of marriage alone.

To put it another way, no one's trying to change _your_ definition of marriage. According to the standard christian definition of marriage, I'm not married (my wedding wasn't christian), but according to the state of wisconsin, I am. Things don't have to mean the same to everyone.

[phyco126]

Eh, like hell I would let any "definition" try to tell me that I'm not married to the one I love. I also don't feel that I need the state's permission to marry someone, I understand why it is likely like this, to prevent polygammy and greencarding. Still, if I slip that ring on the gal I love, I'm with her. Stupid society always trying to butt into other people lives and tell them what they can or can't do when it hurts no one. Grrrr.

Err, anyway, I always feel relieved that I can kill a million people in the most gruesome and torturous way and still go to heaven if I "confess" or "Beg for forgiveness" or whatever. I actually wrote a short story that I want to turn into a short film about the possibility of this actually having a purpose.

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

jwl, why not take comfort in the fact that a gay marriage (i assume) wouldn't be accepted as a valid marriage in the eyes of god?

also i really wish people would stop with the remarks about repenting. why change for the better if the people around you can't stop living in the past?

[RPGMan]

Because the change you want to see in the world is the change you must first make in yourself.


I a not going to go into everything here, many touchy subjects, But I will put my 2 cents in. And also, a forewarning, sorry if i offend anyone here. I personally thingk that religon should not be assessed at forums

Homosexuality can be given at birth as something inert, that does not mean we need to act upon it. We humans are a sinful, lustful race. Some heterosexual acts are sinful also. Like sadomy, now THAT is in the bible also, sadomy is wrong, as well as homosexuality. I don't beleive homosecuals should be persecuted, or have someone elses beleifs smashed into their face, but I do think that someone christian should try to help them, given they are christian and beleive that they need to help the homosexuals and help them come to god. Homosexuall ACTS are a choice, as I said, even if you are as straight as an arrow, you can be turned on by a guy as well as have pleasurable sexuall acts with him/her. That does NOT mean it is koshure. It is our choice if we do that or not, as same as any inert thing. I am a good case, I have an extremely violent temper and suffer from bi-polar disoarder and manic depression. Well, I don't snap people's necks when they look at me wrong do I? That is because I know it is and would be wrong, and oh the big shocker. I am not really sad, I don't let myself succumb to the depression, god has helped me with it.


@ Phyco, I hate the misconception and the twisted back and forth we have on this subject. Like G-one said that you repent your fine blah blah. And if you commit murder or suicide there is a chance you can go to heaven if you repent, that is partly true. Now on the suicide note, the ONLY permissable situation where that could be done without going to hell is if the person was severely mentally retarded or did not know anything for themselves, if they were NEVER introduced to right and wrong, god, love or any of it. They should not be persecuted for what they do not knwo and do not understand. That is why babies always go to heaven. Now, if someone commited suicide. I beleive that is a straight ticket to hell, that is like saying "HERE SATAN, TAKE MY SOUL! I DON'T WANT TO DEAL WITH THIS ANYMORE I AM SELFISH!!!" to sum it up. Suicide is not a cease to the pain, it just leaves it on the broken shoulders of the ones who loved you. And don't say that their background might justify their suicide, that is a total pile of hooker CRAP My luife is one of the shittiest there could be without living on the streets, Ia m not going into details but meh. If one is truley, let me stress, TRULEY walking with god they would not feel the need to commit suicde, and there are plenty of people with worse lives than mine who go about their days happily and don't even think of suicide. Suicide is one of the most sinful and selfish acts you can commit, all you are doing is running away from your problems and dropping pain on everyone else.

And phyco, now to what I was gonna say to you. Please don't see what they were saying about repenting in a twisted light. It does not mean you can commit mass murder and get away with it. If you are true in your heart and TRULEY want forgiveness and repent for your sins you MIGHT get to heaven/be forgiven. I don't mean those people who commit murder or something and repent because they want a ticket to heaven, I mean the ones who truley for themselves want forgiveness. And the christians, who call themselves thatr anyway are not true christans if they beat children for their parents leaving etc. They are the kind that beleive because they want to get into heaven, not because they want to serve god and follow him. It isn't about winning your way up the ladder, it is about doing what god wants you to and following him.

And also, we don't want to leave the marrige subject alone because it was a christian thing, done by christians, they are trying to get into the sanctimonial acts of a man and woman. That isn't right. Marrage shuold be between a man and a woman, that is how it should be. And as alunissage said the reason people think gays can marry is the millenia of imperfection weasiling its way into our souls. It is not right. And the maarage arguement will boil down to opinion, people will think it is wrong or right. But if your a christian and are okay with gay marrage you need to refigure your point of view.

I lost track of all that I wanted to say, I think I covered it all ehre though.

[Ozone]

And also, we don't want to leave the marrige subject alone because it was a christian thing, done by christians, they are trying to get into the sanctimonial acts of a man and woman. That isn't right. Marrage shuold be between a man and a woman, that is how it should be. And as alunissage said the reason people think gays can marry is the millenia of imperfection weasiling its way into our souls. It is not right. And the maarage arguement will boil down to opinion, people will think it is wrong or right. But if your a christian and are okay with gay marrage you need to refigure your point of view.

I lost track of all that I wanted to say, I think I covered it all ehre though.

I'm pretty sure most cultures (past and present) have had a way of binding two people together in a way that is similar to what we call marriage. Remember, there are religions and cultures that pre-date Christianity still around today. So, it's not really just a Christian thing. Marriage is something that is now cross-cultural mainly because the English language has no other word to describe it other than marriage. This means that it may not be YOUR concept of marriage, but it is still called marriage, like it or not, it's a fact of life. Also, considering that gay marriages are not really marriages, they are civil unions, they have nothing to do with religion, including Christianity.

In case you missed it

The problems with not allowing gay people to marry is that then the state fails to be secular. While I would not argue that America (the populace) is largely non-secular, I would argue that it is not Christian, therefore, the government must maintain some semblance of secularity. We're supposed to be a melting pot, remember? Marriage now can be a state/legal affair as opposed to just a religious one. In my opinion, and this may be offensive to you, but I honestly am beyond caring, I've heard way too much about this in the past four years, if you're against gay marriage, shut up and don't get one

While a good portion of Americans may be Anglican Christian, the American populace also contains Jews, Muslims, Hindus, Wiccans, Taoists, Shintoists, Russian Orthodox, Satanists (who I consider Christian because they have to believe that there is a Hell), Catholic, Atheists (yeah, yeah "it's not a religion" but it is something that people believe), and many, many others. Like I said, the American populace is not solely secular, but the government needs to be because while the people may not be secular, they sure as hell aren't just Christian.

[meg]

. . . how old are you, RPGMan?

i keep rereading your post, and it reminds me of myself ten years ago, when i believed everything my parents and their pastors told me.

you have very black and white beliefs.

remember something else the bible says--"do not judge."

you have never been in the shoes, living the life of anyone else. you don't know what it is to be gay, or to be so achingly sad that you could just die.

religion is not a magical cure. it does not automatically make everyone ok. or all the same. getting right with god only works if you also get right with yourself.

i AM a christian. and i AM ok with gays marrying. frankly, gay marraige doesn't hurt anyone. many gays struggle their entire lives with their urges. it's easier to just be straight. why would anyone choose to be abused and spat on? to be told they're going to hell, to have their parents disown them?

you honestly think people want that?

you honestly think god would condemn someone to hell for being sad?

not everyone was granted a strong will, or the ability to hang on forever. sometimes people break and they just stay broken.

it's cruel to assume they're damned.

[phyco126]

Now, if someone commited suicide. I beleive that is a straight ticket to hell, that is like saying "HERE SATAN, TAKE MY SOUL! I DON'T WANT TO DEAL WITH THIS ANYMORE I AM SELFISH!!!" to sum it up. Suicide is not a cease to the pain, it just leaves it on the broken shoulders of the ones who loved you. And don't say that their background might justify their suicide, that is a total pile of hooker CRAP My luife is one of the shittiest there could be without living on the streets, Ia m not going into details but meh. If one is truley, let me stress, TRULEY walking with god they would not feel the need to commit suicde, and there are plenty of people with worse lives than mine who go about their days happily and don't even think of suicide. Suicide is one of the most sinful and selfish acts you can commit, all you are doing is running away from your problems and dropping pain on everyone else.

I also think that is cruel and unfair. If God is truely a forgiving God, then he should take pity on those souls who have suffered so much that caused them to take their own lives. Maybe they don't deserve heaven, but they certainly don't deserve hell either.

I have to ask, have you ever been severly suicidal?

[Alunissage]

Religiously, I don't think suicide is right. But in the instance of the one person I knew who did suicide, the same one G1 mentioned, I know she'd been dealing with conditions that others could well find unendurable, for years. Who the hell am I to judge her? She deserved compassion, not condemnation.

For that matter, who are we to judge anyone? It's not our role. It makes me so angry to see people say that so-and-so is going to wherever. It is God's place to judge what happens to whom, and he has data we don't: the ability to see into hearts and minds. And I for one literally thank Him that it's not my job.

And one more thing, regarding this:

And as alunissage said the reason people think gays can marry is the millenia of imperfection weasiling its way into our souls. It is not right. And the maarage arguement will boil down to opinion, people will think it is wrong or right. But if your a christian and are okay with gay marrage you need to refigure your point of view.

To make it clear, I only said the part about the millennia of imperfection, not its application here. Again, while I don't think homosexuality is right, I think it's hypocritical of a society that accepts those relationships as valid to not go the whole way and accept marriage as being part of that relationship. That has nothing to do with my moral viewpoint. Besides which, from a historical standpoint it's hardly been unusual for two people who were not married to combine households and raise children -- a widow with small children might move in with another woman to have that assistance, and they would act as one household, with no implications of a romantic relationship. Love is only one reason to get married; there are practical concerns as well, and it might be good for there to be a structure by which two adults could share the legal and financial situations of marriage without their personal relationship being any factor at all.

[phyco126]

Religiously, I don't think suicide is right.... Who the hell am I to judge her? She deserved compassion, not condemnation.

For that matter, who are we to judge anyone? It's not our role. It makes me so angry to see people say that so-and-so is going to wherever. It is God's place to judge what happens to whom, and he has data we don't: the ability to see into hearts and minds. And I for one literally thank Him that it's not my job.

Well said, seriously, it hits my views nearly right on the head. The only exception is I don't think suicide is natural, rather than not right on a religious bases (Keep in mind that is my opinion only, and I've yet to find many people still alive that believes the same thing.) Now, as for the judgement part, several places in the bible God/Jesus/whoever mentions that it is NOT our place to judge or deal punishment (which is why some anti-capital punishment people are against the death penalty, they view it was us trying to deal a form of punishment that only God has the right to give.) Some of my favorite sayings on the subject come straight from the bible. "He who has not sinned may cast the first stone" is one of them. The other stating that we have no right to judge others, and it is not God's will (practically a sin.) Hey, according to that now dead guy, the bible is 100% right on all things.

Love is only one reason to get married; there are practical concerns as well, and it might be good for there to be a structure by which two adults could share the legal and financial situations of marriage without their personal relationship being any factor at all.

Yeah, well, unfortunately marriage is "sacred" just like sex is "sacred." Not to be done without love or whatever. Not sure if this would have anything to do with what you said, but if they where to move in without getting married, well, "that's a big no-no and they will go to hell and burn for all eternity." Not from my mouth either.

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

jwl, you asked me if it is christian to sit back as others live sinful lives when i mentioned leaving gays alone. i'm beginning to wonder if you've ever had an orgasm. there is no sense in bugging them about their behavior. i've heard some christians disagree with oral sex. i can assure you that nobody will ever have a debate that'd result in it no longer being a part of my life.