*LOLROFLOMGOMG!!1111 HAHAHAHHEHEHEBWAHAHAHAH LOLOLOLOLOL*

[Ozone]

I was wondering if you would weigh in. Thanks for doing so and reminding everyone that it is not some faceless "them" under discussion.

I have to ask: I also consider sex outside of marriage to be sinful -- does this seem hateful to you? A concomitant of that, which should be pretty obvious, is that had I not met someone I could and did marry, I would still be the purity race winner here. (When I met my husband, who incidentally does not share my religious views, he was firmly convinced that he would die a virgin -- and he was fine with that.) My point is that under such a viewpoint celibacy would be expected of anyone who did not marry, not just homosexuals. Someone who fell in love with a married person would also not be able to consummate that, as adultery is also a sin.

I'm not really sure those are comparable examples. A straight person can still fall in love with another person and consummate that relationship, a gay person cannot in that view point unless they turn straight, and if the person isn't bi, that's a problem because people don't choose to be one of the three, they just are.

[Alunissage]

Yeah, I was going to put in a sentence that I knew they weren't exactly parallel and that I was just trying to illustrate that the concept of someting desirable being a sin is not in place solely to make gays miserable, but I couldn't get it to come out right. Still can't, as that has a snarky sound I don't really intend. *sigh*

Edit:

i'd like to point out that I didn't have you in mind in particular when i've posted in this thread.

*puzzled* "you" = me, or "you" = ilovemyguitar?

[Agawa]

But consider why you find it "hateful". Is the concept of ANY sin "hateful", or is it just that this one is personal to you? Kizyr considers alcohol consumption sinful and I occasionally put a bit of Kahlua in my cocoa; should I find his viewpoint hateful? Yes, obviously I don't feel nearly as strongly about that issue as you do about yours; I don't even like the taste of alcohol and it would hardly be a hardship to give it up. I'm just trying to pin down why you use that particular word. It seems that you are attributing it to the existence of the viewpoint, not any emotion actually attached to it.

I was going to avoid answering in this thread, merely because I wasn't sure i wanted to be drawn into something so personal to me, but I can attempt to give an honest answer to that. I'd say the reason why that one opinion hits home harder than the examples you're giving is because often when it's given, it's implied that simply loving someone - regardless of what you do physically, regardless of any other aspect of it - is wrong, and sinful. That, intended or not, whether it can be helped or not, is hurtful. Finally, even if that implication is not there, there is a difference between having certain guidelines to consummate your love, and being told that it's never going to be - morally - possible for you. Ever. Finally, since people get so very passionate about the topic, I find there is a lot Anyway, I'm not trying to dig at you, and I'm certainly not saying that's what I got from your posts. Heck, I'm not even trying to come out with something smart here. I was merely giving my honest feelings, since like ilovemyguitar, this is something that deeply effects my life.

[ilovemyguitar]

I was wondering if you would weigh in. Thanks for doing so and reminding everyone that it is not some faceless "them" under discussion.

I have to ask: I also consider sex outside of marriage to be sinful -- does this seem hateful to you? A concomitant of that, which should be pretty obvious, is that had I not met someone I could and did marry, I would still be the purity race winner here. (When I met my husband, who incidentally does not share my religious views, he was firmly convinced that he would die a virgin -- and he was fine with that.) My point is that under such a viewpoint celibacy would be expected of anyone who did not marry, not just homosexuals. Someone who fell in love with a married person would also not be able to consummate that, as adultery is also a sin.

No, I don't see that as hateful, because it is not considered sinful for you to fall in love with a man, get married, and consummate that relationship. By the Christian definition of sin, I can't do that. I will never experience romantic love with a woman (my brain simply isn't hardwired that way, and nothing is going to change that), so the only viable option offered is to be celibate for my entire life.

But consider why you find it "hateful". Is the concept of ANY sin "hateful", or is it just that this one is personal to you? Kizyr considers alcohol consumption sinful and I occasionally put a bit of Kahlua in my cocoa; should I find his viewpoint hateful? Yes, obviously I don't feel nearly as strongly about that issue as you do about yours; I don't even like the taste of alcohol and it would hardly be a hardship to give it up. I'm just trying to pin down why you use that particular word. It seems that you are attributing it to the existence of the viewpoint, not any emotion actually attached to it.

It's not that I find the concept of sin hateful. The specific problem I'm getting at here is that Christianity offers heterosexual people the option of being with someone they love, but homosexual people are not given this option.

I honestly take very little issue with Christianity for the most part. It's not my cup of tea, partly because I can't reconcile some the supernatural events it gives relevance to with my own beliefs and partly because I think it drops the ball on the subject of sexuality in general, but I think it teaches a lot of really sound morals, and it's an easy-to-swallow philosophy for people who may not care to study philosophy otherwise.

And one final thing I want to say, simply because nobody has questioned this since another poster claimed it, hedonism and relativism are not the same thing at all. Hedonism is the idea that only things that are pleasant or have pleasant consequences are intrinsically good. Relativism is the idea that conceptions of moral values and truths are relative to the situation in which they're presented. While these concepts are not mutually exclusive, they are not the same thing by a long shot.

[RPGMan]

. . . how old are you, RPGMan?

i keep rereading your post, and it reminds me of myself ten years ago, when i believed everything my parents and their pastors told me.

you have very black and white beliefs.

remember something else the bible says--"do not judge."

you have never been in the shoes, living the life of anyone else. you don't know what it is to be gay, or to be so achingly sad that you could just die.

religion is not a magical cure. it does not automatically make everyone ok. or all the same. getting right with god only works if you also get right with yourself.

i AM a christian. and i AM ok with gays marrying. frankly, gay marraige doesn't hurt anyone. many gays struggle their entire lives with their urges. it's easier to just be straight. why would anyone choose to be abused and spat on? to be told they're going to hell, to have their parents disown them?

you honestly think people want that?

you honestly think god would condemn someone to hell for being sad?

not everyone was granted a strong will, or the ability to hang on forever. sometimes people break and they just stay broken.

it's cruel to assume they're damned.

Who the hell are you to come off on your pedestal saying that? That was one of the most hypocritical and conceided things I have heard in a LONG time. Now lets break this down and set what you said straight. I am 16 by the way. My mother was an alcoholic up until maybe a month and a half ago. My father doesn't care a rat's -Fatal Hopper- about me. And my brother threatens to kill me very often, I have very few friends; all of my major friends have betrayed me and or moved. I can't keep in contact with the ones that I care about vice versa because of their distance from me. And yes I know EXACTLY what it is like to be gay. Those are the minute problems in my life. I have puked on a number of occasions because of stress. I suffer from depression and think of suicide a lot. Well in the past anyway. And I struggled for awhile (I don't know if struggle is the correct word, hard to describe) with whether I was straight or not. I was as some people would lable homosexual for some time. So DO NOT go off judging people becuase their belefis differ from yours! Jsut becauase my beleifs are different and more 'black and white' than your 'grey' beleifs makes me immature, childish or apathetic? No, my verdicts have manifested from experiences that I have gone through and I beleive the things I do because I have studied them and I do know what it feels like. And so achingly sad I could just die? Yeah tell that to me when I have convulsed in agony and nearly having a seizure and choking on tears becasue of sadness you insensitvie judgemental fool.

And I may have said some things more wrong than what I meant them as. I said I beleive that someone will go to hell for suicide,and that i beleive that homosexuality is wrong and what not. And I know some people can't handle as much as others, but if you are with god you wouldn't commit suicide or what ever. I have known people that have commited suicide and I have helped a number of people from it. I can read people very well. the best way to put it is that I can absorb their emotions. and frankly I don't care if you don't beleive me, I know what I know and my friends can back me up on that one. I am not the one to decide whether someone goes to hell or heaven, and don't assume that. And yes I know some people do suffer from great depression and can not discern their actions from right and wrong. That is when I question whether suicide should be condemable or not. There are shades of grey in the suicidal area because of that. generally though, suicide is one of the deadly sins, it is the same as murder. because when someone offs themselves they are interfering with God's work and playing God, the same is when someone murders someone else. and With the marraige thing. I am a christain, in the bible it is supposed to be a man and a woman, that is what is natural. I do think homesexuality is wrong but I don't think someone who is should be persecuted. But I think they shuold not be able to marry, because marraige was made in the tense that it was to be a sacred natural event of a man and woman. And when someone homosexuall says that it is bad because they can't marry someone they love; that is another thing, I beleive love is something to be worked on, you can fall in love with anyone. So In my beleif. I think marrage between gay couples is wrong. And that you can love any person though, but marrage should not be disturbed that way. and just because your in love with someone doesnt mean they are the right one or that they are the only one, you can be in love with someone and have them not love you or them not be good (like in life health) to you. that is why i beleive marraige should be between a man and a woman, not a man and a man, not a woman and a woman. One last thing. I hate it when someone says being gay is wrong and then turns around saying lesbians are hot or that they are okay when they beleive gay men are not. That is hypocritical and disgusting for someone to be that one trackminded.

[phyco126]

...you insensitvie judgemental fool.

Please refrain from name calling etc.

That is hypocritical and disgusting for someone to be that one trackminded.

And I can say the same about those that are one trackminded about all this religious crap. Just throwing it out there.

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

Yeah, I was going to put in a sentence that I knew they weren't exactly parallel and that I was just trying to illustrate that the concept of someting desirable being a sin is not in place solely to make gays miserable, but I couldn't get it to come out right. Still can't, as that has a snarky sound I don't really intend. *sigh*

Edit:

i'd like to point out that I didn't have you in mind in particular when i've posted in this thread.

*puzzled* "you" = me, or "you" = ilovemyguitar?

i meant ilovemyguitar. also, i'll add that i didn't think you sounded snarky.

also, rpgman, don't let her assumptions bug ya. YOU know how your life has gone. her assuming you're unaware of the feeling of gaity (is that even a word?) didn't seem TOO absurd but saying you don't truly know depression was enough to get a belly laugh out of me. now the thread title truly applies. reminded me of that crappy song that actually says "no one knows what it's like"....i think it's called behind blue eyes.


edit: can't we just agree to disagree? the christians are arguing that homosexuality/homosexual acts (i put both. i mean either or both. depends on your perspective.) are wrong and the people on the other side think our beliefs about homosexuals are wrong. will anyone budge? i doubt it. these are things we feel but does anyone BENEFIT here? will this only lead to ilovemyguitar feeling alienated HERE of all places?

[meg]

rpgman . . . i asked how old you were, and you said "16."

obviously, i got something right.

you have it rough right now. but everyone gets that. my dad's a drunk too. i've had friends betray and ditch me too. i've been achingly depressed and broken hearted, and in love with the wrong people and pulling others down from their nooses and all that jazz too.

most people have. it's part of life and growing up, unfortunately (especially in the teen years, when stuff hits hardest). i don't mean to belittle or blow off your problems. but.

i'm going to reiterate: you aren't other people.

i believe what you say about "absorbing" emotions. i do the same thing. the hardest part is squeezing them back out of your system afterwards.

yes, you can love anybody. but not everyone has the same emotional make up, and we require different things in order to move on or heal. some people never do.

as to marriage--there is religious marriage, and then there is the law. every religion and culture handles religious marriage differently.

athiests develop their own ways of marrying. and if we were just talking about religious ceremonies, i might be inclined to agree with you.

but you're disregarding the laws and rights that spouses get, that ordinary lovers do not. a spouse may visit a spouse in the hospital. a lover, lacking that lawful right, is barred from that. a spouse cannot be called to testify against a spouse in court. a lover can be. a spouse can handle the estate and other matters for a sick or dying spouse. a lover cannot.

many gays marry in their own way, for that emotional bond, and promise. but that doesn't give them the legal rights of spouses. and that causes a lot of heartache.

can you give a reason not based in your own personal religion as to why gays shouldn't have those rights?




--and, outside this debate--keep an eye on your mom, ok? i've got a lot of alcoholics in my family. a month and a half doesn't mean anything. good luck to you both.

edit: also, gaiety is a word. once upon a time, "gay" meant a particular kind of innocent, fun happy. gaiety, naturally, is just the noun for the feeling/outpouring of that happiness.

and these sorts of debates don't END. they just trail off until everyone gets sick of them. i sort of view them as an exercise in better learning and solidifying your own POV to be honest.

[RPGMan]

Well Thanks Meg,


Sorry for the name calling =/ I get on the defensive quite easily. I have been told that numerous times people saying you don't know how i fell etc etc. And it is justy the opposite. And I mean yeah I have some crappy stuff that goes on, but I still don't want to give up. I mean there are people who love me and there are people who need me, so I am not gonna leave or give up, I am a persistent bast**d too I just hate it how some people can give up like that it really saddens me. Because life is what you make it. A good quote I like to go by. Life can be as bitter as dragon tears, but whether they be bitter or sweet depends on how one perceives the taste. So topics like suicide and what not get me going a bit.

And I see where you are coming from with the laws of marriage etc. Well, all I can really say about this debate is world has sin, if it didn't we wouldn't have these problems because we'd all be perfect. And people are their own beings to be judged by god and only god. In my beleif. And as I said before I wouldn't go on a protest to gay marriage, nor would I support it, for the reasons given in this thread. But I still stand by the beleif it is natural to be a man and woman together.

Lol on the gay bit. I liked that because I am a very articulately idiomatic person. (not sure if thats the right words though =p) But I like to use words the proper way and it is fun to get people mad when they say gay and mean it that way when it means happy. And also another tidbit. Have you ever heard someone say I am going to "dethaw" the meat? That means freeze, thaw would be the correct grammaticall use. And When someone says do you mind, yes menas no and no means yes because you are saying no i dont mind and yes I do mind. It is fun to see people get mixed up with words.

And thanks again, I try to help her as much as I can

[Alunissage]

I have to say, it really bothers me that so many words in our language that were positive and/or interesting have been co-opted for this purpose. Gay, queer, fairy, queen, even faggot... the last meant a stick or bundle of sticks, which is why the Italian word for bassoon is fagotto, because it looks like several sticks tied together. I suppose only the first two are used in a non-pejorative way, but their original meanings have been largely subsumed... and darnit, I liked "queer" as a word for odd or quirky, as I first encountered it. It still shows up as a verb in "don't queer the pitch". But I suspect if I used it as an adjective in its older sense that people would think I meant it as a pejorative in the way "gay" is used as a pejorative adjective.

My degree was in linguistics, I know that word meanings and usages change (heck, "queen" used to mean any man's wife, not just the wife of the king), but... I don't have to like it. I don't have a problem with there being a word used to neutrally describe someone in a homosexual relationship, but I wish it had been created for the purpose or been more obscure. I don't really like "straight" used to mean "heterosexual"; it's too useful in its other meanings, and in this context implies a lack of integrity in the people it is not used to describe which seems unnecessary and insulting.

[phyco126]

I have to say, it really bothers me that so many words in our language that were positive and/or interesting have been co-opted for this purpose. Gay, queer, fairy, queen, even faggot... the last meant a stick or bundle of sticks, which is why the Italian word for bassoon is fagotto, because it looks like several sticks tied together.

Reminds me of some of the sentances me and a friend would come with that could be taken with two meanings...

"Me and my friend had a wonderfully gay time, though people around us thought it queer to throw the last faggot on the fire to keep warm."

[RPGMan]

Yeah I feel the same way. Also doesn't faggot mean like a ciggarette or something?

I use queer as its actuall meaning, weird. I am very queer. And it is like when i use it people are like omfgwtf? lol, it is soo aggrivating. It just goes to show how debauched society is.

I don't even think many of you will have known this. You know how people say Mrs. is misses? Well it isn't. It actually means mistress of. Like if you were to say this (to a John doe and sherley doe) you would say Mistress of John Doe. That was the orginal meaning anyway, we have adopted it to be misses doe or whatever.

[Alunissage]

It would be Mistress Doe. Its usage wasn't quite that possessive. It's just the feminine/married form of Master. Later the word was used to refer to a woman with whom a man was having an affair; you'll see it all over the place in The Three Musketeers (and in accounts of French history, heh). It's still occasionally used closer to its original meaning.

I wouldn't say the changing usage of words is from society being "debauched". It's just the usual tendency of people finding insulting and denigrating ways to refer to people who are different from them.

Yes, faggot or fag can refer to a cigarette, though that's not common usage here. The connection between a cigarette and a bundle of sticks should be pretty obvious.

[Ozone]

I have to say, it really bothers me that so many words in our language that were positive and/or interesting have been co-opted for this purpose. Gay, queer, fairy, queen, even faggot... the last meant a stick or bundle of sticks, which is why the Italian word for bassoon is fagotto, because it looks like several sticks tied together.

Reminds me of some of the sentances me and a friend would come with that could be taken with two meanings...

"Me and my friend had a wonderfully gay time, though people around us thought it queer to throw the last faggot on the fire to keep warm."

I've used that line before and the looks I get when I use it are absolutely priceless. Yeah, I like messin' with people's minds. Big woop. Wanna fight about it? xD Name that TV show xD

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

i only know it from family guy.

[Ozone]

i only know it from family guy.

That would be the correct answer xD

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

but family guy always makes pop culture references, so patty o brian isn't original....i'm just too lazy to look it up since you can only have a page up at a time with the wii.

[Benevolent_Ghaleon]

just to even out the negativity, freddy murcury from queen was gay and he was AWESOME!

[RPGMan]

It's just the usual tendency of people finding insulting and denigrating ways to refer to people who are different from them.

That seems pretty dang immoral to me I don't know if I said it right, but I was pointing that at the use of making normal words into dengrating comments or what not.

And the sentence thing is always fun to do I have a bunch of little inside jokes with me and my friend Brad because when i sleep over at his house we usually sleep in the same bed. So like last night when we were on our way to action city (friggin SWEET, my frist time too =p) I was like (I was telling mom -----i count his mom as my second mom---- about a time I was grossing him out because i mentioned something in the car that was gross) When me and Brad were in bed I was talking to him.. And we started to bust out laughing. And then i was like, well it was after we were playing together so we were pretty tired out =p It was funny, it was more of thopse things where you wouldda had to been there i think to get it.