Jerry Falwell passed away...

[Ozone]

The true message of the Bible has been absolutely lost in my honest opinion, and I blame people like Jerry Falwell.

That, I have a problem with. What about those who go and build houses, hospitals and schools for the poor? What about those who die for their faith, all because of said faith? What about those who help out in a soup kitchen? Most importantly, what about those who try and show the love of Christ and be a "light to the nations" as Isaiah 49:6 puts it? Barring all sorts of political mumbo jumbo and looking past the screendoor of modern-day "religion", this is, in essence, what a Christian is. The message is, there, plain as day. To say it's been lost just because you disagree with Falwell or some other big name televangelist.

Disclaimer: I mean no offense to anyone that liked or disliked Falwell... like I said, I really never studied anything he said to any significant detail. I've spent far more time with C.S. Lewis, Karl Barth, Dietrich Bonhoeffer and the like than any of the current Christian big name authors or evangelists like Falwell and Robertson.

Okay, so it's not completely lost, but I feel that the main point of living a good life has been seriously forgotten by a large portion of the populace. Aside from that, I know secular soup kitchens and charities, it's not a solely Christian thing, but you're right that they do provide a large number of good services to those who need it.

[GhaleonOne]

Aside from that, I know secular soup kitchens and charities, it's not a solely Christian thing, but you're right that they do provide a large number of good services to those who need it.

Certainly, I wasn't arguing that. There are a lot of good, charitable people who aren't Christians. I just found the comment that the Bible's message has been lost to be off, and felt strongly enough to respond to it. If I didn't believe it's message still holds true today, I wouldn't be a Christian, after all.

[Ozone]

Aside from that, I know secular soup kitchens and charities, it's not a solely Christian thing, but you're right that they do provide a large number of good services to those who need it.

Certainly, I wasn't arguing that. There are a lot of good, charitable people who aren't Christians. I just found the comment that the Bible's message has been lost to be off, and felt strongly enough to respond to it. If I didn't believe it's message still holds true today, I wouldn't be a Christian, after all.

Oh no, I think the message holds true today, but not the way it should. With some people it's almost like there's a conditionality to what is supposed to be unconditional love for your fellow man (read human being), and that's something that I find insanely offensive, and near inhuman.

[phyco126]

On 9/11 - "I really believe that the pagans, and the abortionists, and the feminists, and the gays and the lesbians who are actively trying to make that an alternative lifestyle, the ACLU, People For the American Way, all of them who have tried to secularize America. I point the finger in their face and say 'you helped this happen.'"

"AIDS is not just God's punishment for homosexuals; it is God's punishment for the society that tolerates homosexuals."

"I hope I live to see the day when, as in the early days of our country, we won't have any public schools. The churches will have taken them over again and Christians will be running them."

"If you're not a born-again Christian, you're a failure as a human being."

"Christians, like slaves and soldiers, ask no questions"

"The idea that religion and politics don't mix was invented by the Devil to keep Christians from running their own country."

"The Bible is the inerrant ... word of the living God. It is absolutely infallible,without error in all matters pertaining to faith and practice, as well as in areas such as geography, science, history, etc."

"AIDS is the wrath of a just God against homosexuals. To oppose it would be like an Israelite jumping in the Red Sea to save one of Pharoah's chariotters."

“Textbooks are Soviet propaganda.”

"I listen to feminists and all these radical gals...These women just need a man in the house. That"s all they need. Most of the feminists need a man to tell them what time of day it is and to lead them home. And they blew it and they"re mad at all men. Feminists hate men. They"re sexist. They hate men; that"s their problem."

Wow, I... I knew I had the right idea to not watch christian propaganda on TV. Now if you excuse me, I must do God's will and pass AIDS to everyone, as they caused 9/11, and I must have massive Nazi style book burnings. I will beat women who are independant, because their only lot in life is to stay at home and let a man boss them around. I will also study the bible, and when it tells me to kill someone, I will.

You know, this all reminds me of a friend of mine, who is such a devoted christian she litterally borders on nutcase. I asked her, if the bible told her to jump off a bridge at a certain age, will she do it? To my actual surprise, the responce was "Yes, it is God's will." ... ... ... Wow.

[Angelalex242]

Well, if ya look at the old testament...

God told Abraham to kill Issac in one of the most famous biblical stories in Genesis.

Abraham was sad, but prepared to sacrifice his son right on schedule. Naturally, God isn't the sort of God who wants humans sacrificed, and certainly not somebody's only son, so he sends an angel down to stop Abraham from doing it and gets a ram caught on a bush for him to sacrifice instead.

I guess your friend who would jump off a bridge if told to by God would be rather expecting the same sort of thing...an angel or whatever grabbing her and keeping her from dying.

Then again, you might tell your friend the 'moral' of the Genesis story of Abraham is, "God doesn't tell people to kill people. Or themselves, for that matter." And if she tries to say she's only doing it so she can get saved, remind her what Christ said in the Temptation in the Desert. "You shall not presume upon the Lord your God."

...none of which has anything to do with Rev. Falwell.

However, because Mr. Falwell did a rather poor job of representing what Christianity is supposed to be, it might be be best to write him off as a false prophet and leave it at that.

[Kizyr]

And to ignore every decent thing Falwell ever said also ignores part of who he was. Plenty of other public and political figures have said vicious things, and I don't see them constantly being bashed over the head with their most outrageous quotes.

I don't believe that's true in the slightest. Any public figure is judged by whatever they say that has the most impact on other people, not just what they spend the majority of their time saying.

For instance, Bush probably spent as much time talking about issues like healthcare, illegal immigration, and the economy (perhaps you can include 9/11 and the war in Afghanistan if you're counting his first term) as he has talking about the Iraq War. But, nothing's going to change the fact that the Iraq War will be the #1 thing he'll be remembered for (perhaps 9/11 at #2). Likewise, Tony Blair's legacy will be primarily the Iraq War, even though he might have spent as much, or more, time on other issues--like the peace process in Northern Ireland.

While I'm speaking my mind I'll say that I probably agree with about 80% of everything I've ever heard from Falwell, and I'm not even a Protestant.

The thing is, that statement really doesn't mean very much. Most of what anyone says is pretty neutral and non-controversial. Again, it's what people say that has the greatest effect on others--to put it more precisely, it's that extra 20% that counts. By extension, I probably would agree with about 80% of what Hilary Clinton, Barack Obama, or Rudolph Giuliani says. But I'm strongly in favor of one of them over the other two, because of the significance of that remaining 20%.

It's kind of like having a conversation with a libertarian...
Lib: The best government is a small government
Me: Yeah, I agree...
Lib: The government needs to tax less and drastically cut its spending
Me: I can agree with that...
Lib: People need to take responsibility for themselves, instead of expecting handouts
Me: Mm-hmm
Lib: People have a right to privacy, the right to bear arms, etc.
Me: Right, right...
Lib: Marijuana should be legalized
Me: Yea--wait, WTF?

Wow, I... I knew I had the right idea to not watch christian propaganda on TV. Now if you excuse me, I must do God's will and pass AIDS to everyone, as they caused 9/11, and I must have massive Nazi style book burnings. I will beat women who are independant, because their only lot in life is to stay at home and let a man boss them around. I will also study the bible, and when it tells me to kill someone, I will.

It's all about sticking to the right message, and not getting sidetracked by all this other crap that people try, errantly, to insert into religion.

Try this... Just read the four Gospels, and focus on what's directly said by Jesus--the stories/parables, the quotations, etc. It's a good start and, if you ask me, gives the clearest message of what Jesus was trying to teach. Everything else can sort of flow from there. KF

[JWL]

How ridiculous! Since this thread started I have been complaining about how foolish it is to take the most extreme quotes a man has ever said in his entire life and use them to sum him up, and here come more and more folks posting the most extreme remarks Falwell has ever made, resulting in yet more idiocy.

Look, Falwell is pretty easy to explain. He got involved in politics after the Supreme Court's Roe v. Wade decision, which basically prevents the American people from regulating abortion through their legislatures by inserting new language into the US Constitution through a process other than Constitutional Amendment. If not for that, he wouldn't have been involved in politics. The point is that he was a preacher of the Gospels who felt compelled to get involved in politics because of what was happening in America. 99% of the time what he said was perfectly in line with the Gospels, and I must admit that I resent this implication that he was anti-Christian. I also have to remind you this is coming from a CATHOLIC in defense of a PROTESTANT. If you don't understand the relevance of that, you shouldn't be commenting in this thread. Trying to sum up his life with a handful of extreme quotes, several of which are taken out of context, is shameful.

The same thing and worse was done to my recently defeated Senator, Rick Santorum, and the dishonesty of these attacks is intolerable. According to his enemies, Santorum hates women, homosexuals, poor people, Muslims, and pretty much everybody... and yet the only way to arrive at those conclusions is to twist and distort his words.

As for remarks that are remembered, gee, we seem to have selective memory on those for some reason, but there's no problem finding Falwell's most ridiculous remarks all over the internet, of course. Somehow most of you have never even heard these remarks from Falwell, and yet I'm to understand that they are the words which represent him best.

I'm officially done with this thread, just in case anyone expects further replies from me. I've said all I can say here without repeating myself... again.

[phyco126]

Shame is bad. Guilt is good.

I don't care if a Muslim is trying to defend a Christian or vice versa. That shows nothing in revelance. It just shows that you are defending someone who was of different faith but who shares the same beliefs as you.

Whether you will reply or not, I don't care, but I'm gonna ask/state this anyway.

Hitler must have done some good thing with his life. Same with Osama. And Mussolini. And whoever else falls into the evil category. So by your admission, we shouldn't look at the evil these people did, rather the good?

You are right, we shouldn't judge someone's wholeself based on a couple of bad things they said. I don't know what this guy said outside of the bad quotes that where posted here. However, since that is all I have to base on him, of course I'm not going to have a very high opinion of the guy. Or religion for that matter. THAT is what makes him bad. He said a couple of things that will turn people away from God. Hell, after reading those quotes I'm in the mood to burn my bibles. Yet I don't, because thankfully my beliefs still have a good hold on me. What about those that have a poor grasp of their faith? That would certainly push them furthur away from God. I can't remember if it was God or Jesus who said something alone the lines of "You will be judged not on the many good things you might have done, rather the one bad thing." It was something along those lines.

[GhaleonOne]

That would certainly push them furthur away from God. I can't remember if it was God or Jesus who said something alone the lines of "You will be judged not on the many good things you might have done, rather the one bad thing."

And show me a human being (besides Jesus) who lived a perfect life? If that was the case, they could walk right into heaven. The entire point of Christianity is that Christ's ministry on earth, his death and his resurrection were so that he (a sinless human being) could take on the punishment of those of us who are not so perfect and stumble sometimes.

[phyco126]

I'm not the one who said that, you can take it up with the big man himself when you get there.

Edit: Oh, and of course that is what christianity is all about. I'm not denying it. No one is perfect. Yet, I didn't say that estimated quote either, nope. I also believe that Jesus isn't perfect. I believe there where times even he stumbled.

[GhaleonOne]

You're totally not getting what I'm saying though. Jesus said that knowing that no one would be able to stack up to God, knowing that we Christ is put in our place when that judgement comes. Therefor we're not judged based on what we do, but on what Jesus did (death on by crucifixion and subsequent conquering of death). Granted, you don't have to believe this. I'm just telling you, that's the mindset where I and a good deal of Christians come from in that regard. If you don't believe Jesus was the only sinless human, then you've already thrown all of this out the window anyways. I'm just trying to get you to understand why that was said, and why it doesn't apply in the way you're trying to apply it. (plus, I'd like to see the exact verse, rather than going off memory)

[phyco126]

Sorry, I really don't have the patience to look through a 500+ page book that I don't really even "live by." I was just throwing it out there. I also find it hard to believe that we arn't judged by what we do. I commit suicide, that's certainly going to get me judged by my actions, no?

[GhaleonOne]

In my opinion? It all depends on the circumstances behind it.

The best way I can explain it is by going back to the way the ancient Israelites understood it back in the Moses' time. The belief was (and still is) that God is pure, clean and in essence, everything that stands for good. In fact, the statement "God is love" is probably the perfect way to put it. Now, many people would think that impurity would make the pure tainted, but those ancient Hebrews claimed that when purity came in contact with the impure, the impure was destroyed. This is illustrated with sin. When perfect and pure love comes in contact with sin and evil, in the end, love conquers all. So basically, sin, and anyone found with sin, is destroyed by absolute purity. Because God is love, though, the idea of Christ's death and resurrection being a saving grace comes into play (obviously only Christians are going to believe these, but I'm just trying to illustrate the point so you understand where I'm coming from). In essence, God loved his creation so much that he wasn't willing to see humanity perish, but found a way past this problem by dying in our place. Basically, the only human that got humanity right, a sinless human, willingly becomes the ultimate sacrifice for humanity's sins. The point is, when judgement day does come, you are then judged by your faith, not by your works. Basically, your faith in Christ means you are judged based on his life, not on yours.

The thing is, many people claim being a Christian just means living a good life and trying to help others, etc. Certainly this isn't a bad thing, and certainly, I believe a Christian SHOULD try their hardest to live this kind of life, but when it comes to the very essence of the faith, it's not at the center. If all it takes to get to heaven is be a good person, the entire point of God coming down in human form and dying for the sins of humanity is pointless. Jesus never needed to be crucified if that was the case. He could have called down an army of angels to protect him when the time came, but he willingly allowed it. If you look all through the Old Testament, the ancient Jewish people believed in a Messiah that would come and save them. It's just, many of them, when Messiah did come didn't realize that they would be saved in a spiritual and eternal way, rather than an earthly way. What good is David's great kingdom of old to live in on earth if you pass away and that's it? It's all over. (which is very well what "hell" may be) All over the place in the Old Testament, there are prophecies and a great deal of foreshadowing regarding this. As far back as Abraham's time.

I feel like a preacher here, and that wasn't my intent. I hope I don't come off that way. But with all of the comments about Christianity, it pretty much came down to needing to at least state my viewpoint on it, so you know where I'm coming from, since I'm probably not stating it very well in the above posts. And really, that's a very shortened version of what I could have wrote. I've got pages and pages of writings on the topic, but there's no way anyone is going to sift through it all on a message board.

[DeathBeforeDenial]

The physical actions in ones life are reflections of ones faith. Though both faith and works alone are dead, true faith in God will yield good works in your life, and likewise forcing yourself to do good works often strengthens faith. Suicide is merely another reflection of the faith you had in your life.

Besides, suicide isn't even one of those cut and dry black and white biblical no-nos anyway. It's typically lumped in with selfishness, foolishness etc. but that doesn't mean it was never allowed. For example Samson.

Hitler must have done some good thing with his life. Same with Osama. And Mussolini. And whoever else falls into the evil category. So by your admission, we shouldn't look at the evil these people did, rather the good?

No offense, but your comparisson borders on flatout stupid. Comparring a televangelist who said maybe 2 dozen off-color remarks in his life (That can be sourced), to men who want(ed) the wanton murders of millions. Ignoring the good Jerry Falwell (Including fundraisers and mission work) did with his life is a total condemnation to every human living, including yourselves who oh so quickly want cast this man into hell yourselves. You all are going to tell me, that in your life, if we took two dozen sentences with no context, and used them as a biography for you, that would be fair?

I don't even like Falwell, but the way people just want to tear this guy down, it's sad. Like using an ivory tower to attack another ivory tower.

[GhaleonOne]

The physical actions in ones life are reflections of ones faith. Though both faith and works alone are dead, true faith in God will yield good works in your life, and likewise forcing yourself to do good works often strengthens faith. Suicide is merely another reflection of the faith you had in your life.

You just said in three sentences what I was trying to say in about a paragraph. Thanks.

[meg]

Hitler must have done some good thing with his life. Same with Osama. And Mussolini. And whoever else falls into the evil category. So by your admission, we shouldn't look at the evil these people did, rather the good?

oh, for the love of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law">godwin</a>.

phyco. don't DO that.

[GhaleonOne]

LOL at the see also's. Grammar Nazi's and Internet Trolls. Wikipedia has everything!

[Kizyr]

Hitler must have done some good thing with his life. Same with Osama. And Mussolini. And whoever else falls into the evil category. So by your admission, we shouldn't look at the evil these people did, rather the good?

oh, for the love of <a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin's_Law">godwin</a>.
phyco. don't DO that.

You beat me to the punch!

Godwin's Law-ed!

No offense, but your comparisson borders on flatout stupid. Comparring a televangelist who said maybe 2 dozen off-color remarks in his life (That can be sourced), to men who want(ed) the wanton murders of millions. Ignoring the good Jerry Falwell (Including fundraisers and mission work) did with his life is a total condemnation to every human living, including yourselves who oh so quickly want cast this man into hell yourselves. You all are going to tell me, that in your life, if we took two dozen sentences with no context, and used them as a biography for you, that would be fair?

It still all circles back to what people do that has the most effect on others in their lifetime, and that's what we're remembered for.

When you're someone in the public light, the effects of what you is what people notice, which isn't always proportional to what you invest your time in. Say, a President can spend all his time working on fixing health care, but in the end his election can be determined by the state of the economy, or what he chose to do with foreign policy, or any number of other issues. When you choose to step into the public light, like with Falwell, those are the sorts of things you have to accept. KF

[phyco126]

Hitler must have done some good thing with his life. Same with Osama. And Mussolini. And whoever else falls into the evil category. So by your admission, we shouldn't look at the evil these people did, rather the good?

No offense, but your comparisson borders on flatout stupid. Comparring a televangelist who said maybe 2 dozen off-color remarks in his life (That can be sourced), to men who want(ed) the wanton murders of millions. Ignoring the good Jerry Falwell (Including fundraisers and mission work) did with his life is a total condemnation to every human living, including yourselves who oh so quickly want cast this man into hell yourselves. You all are going to tell me, that in your life, if we took two dozen sentences with no context, and used them as a biography for you, that would be fair?

Um, yeah, uh huh, indeed... no. Okay, I think everyone missed what I was getting at. I'm not comparring these people to some religious guy, I'm trying to state that the whole statement of "Quit looking at the bad, you should only look at the good someone has done" needs to be resaid. By that very statement, then we should rewrite our history books and reevalutate how we look at those freaks. It has nothing to do with the religious guy himself. However, if you want, I can totally compare him to one of those guys, it can't be that hard based on the couple things he said.

oh, for the love of godwin.

phyco. don't DO that.

Well, who else do you suggest? Hitler was one of the evilist of the lot. I certainly can't use Sunshine Bear, or Strawberry Shortcake, can I?

[Ozone]

The physical actions in ones life are reflections of ones faith. Though both faith and works alone are dead, true faith in God will yield good works in your life, and likewise forcing yourself to do good works often strengthens faith. Suicide is merely another reflection of the faith you had in your life.

You just said in three sentences what I was trying to say in about a paragraph. Thanks.

LOLZ xD

You can't compare someone like Hitler to Falwell. It's impossible. Pyco does have a point though, considering that Hitler completely rebuilt the economy of Germany, which was destroyed by the Treaty of Versailles, yes, the future Allies of WWII, specifically France, had a hand in starting WWII, irony, eh? In fact, he was voted Man of the Year by TIME Magazine in 1938. I wonder if that title comes with an "Oops Clause?" xD However, this does NOT make up for the grievous crimes against humanity that he committed, in fact, it does not even come close. While Falwell is nowhere near Hitler in my opinion, and nor should he be in any of your opinions, he was a racist, sexist, hateful, homophobic bigot. I don't care how much good you do for people with fundraising, the spreading of ideas like those that he spread just can't be made up for. Ideas are dangerous, whether we like it or not. If enough people are dumb enough to believe the horse crap this guy spewed, it can become a severe problem, and, all of a sudden, America is run by fundamentalist Christians, kinda like George Dubya, except these ones might be deadly because they have half a brain. No thanks, I'll move to Europe. Come on! This guy was pro-apartheid, need I say more?