Seeking aid to produce Lunar 3: Ebony Destiny

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Bloodrose
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Seeking aid to produce Lunar 3: Ebony Destiny

Post by Bloodrose »

Seeking any and all talents to produce a fan-based Lunar sequel.

I'm also currently working on ideas for a Lunar prequel featuring Althena as the main character.

Current positions AVAILABLE:
Task leader
Programmer
Script writer
Sketch artist
Sprite artist/graphic design
Music composer/mixer

Please submit a post or email if you are interested in joining the effort!

LUNAR 3: EBONY DESTINY COMPLETE ((Sequel))

It had been three thousand years since Althena unleashed her power on the Blue Star in an effort to destroy the wicked Zophar. Princess Luvia had been entrusted with overseeing the newly revived surface. But, mere observations of humanity could not satisfy her curiosity and soon she longed to experience mortality herself. She abandoned her divine form and was reborn a human child. In the years that followed, she met a kind man and fell in love.
Unfortunately, their happiness was short-lived. The human heart was fragile and in absence of Althena’s protection, it became consumed by lust and greed. The masses were soon divided by war. Luvia’s knight was struck down as a casualty.
Grief-stricken, Princess Luvia’s heart grew cold and cruel. She took refuge in the Goddess Tower and reclaimed Althena’s power as Lady Marein. The Goddess’ despair gave birth to vicious, blood-thirsty beasts that infested both land and sky. The Blue Star became shrouded in darkness and as a result, it came to be known as the Dark Star.

MAIN CHARACTER: Imperial Star Dragon

LUNAR: DIVINE LIGHT SAGA ((Prequel))

Lunar had once been void of life; a dull gem floating in an infinite sea. The first creatures to set foot on its dry, barren soil were filled with malicious intent. Eventually, water flooded the earth, planting the seeds of Nature’s will. In an effort to preserve the beauty that emerged, blinding light bathed the new world in an impenetrable cocoon. Four millenniums passed before the cocoon finally shriveled into dust. A star vanished from the sky above and a new entity was born; a being of absolute perfection. The guardian possessed incredible abilities capable of producing or destroying entire planets. Evil fell and the land rejoiced sprouting complex life-forms that mirrored their savior. Though the balance had shifted, conflict was necessary to encourage growth. Thus the creatures were given the gift of “emotion” and the opportunity to decide their own fate through the concept of, "free will." They were nurtured until their influence corrupted the planet's innocence. Immediate consequences were initiated and the immortal deity was stripped of its power and memory, imprisoned within the world of humanity.

MAIN CHARACTER: Althena
Last edited by Bloodrose on Wed Jul 15, 2009 5:17 pm, edited 10 times in total.

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Nobiyuki77
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Re: Lunar-net Community Effort Request!

Post by Nobiyuki77 »

Ideally it'd be awesome, but there are several problems with this. Who's the director? Who's the writer? Which cannon do we base it on? Not problems easily solved.

I may be an artist, but I'm also a writer as well. If I were going to work on an original Lunar fanbased project I'd be biased toward my own ideas. The Lunar community is highly creative, and without a way to really decide these things, without a way to really organize it and pull it together, the project wouldn't likely get off the ground.
-Nobi

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Kizyr
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Re: Lunar-net Community Effort Request!

Post by Kizyr »

Nobiyuki77 wrote:Ideally it'd be awesome, but there are several problems with this. Who's the director? Who's the writer? Which cannon do we base it on? Not problems easily solved.
What cannon? The Dragonship Destiny's White Dragon Cannon, of course! None can stand before it!

We have some good writers, some good artists. And everything begins with a storyboard, so anything is possible from there. But, things fall apart when there's poor leadership and poor design in the mix.

So what we need are three things: (1) a Keeper of Knowledge, to see to it that the design of the project is feasible, that we have the right skill sets among the people involved, and a realistic expectations of the hurdles we may encounter down the road, (2) a Magic Emperor or Dragonmaster, to make sure that everyone is on task and who is willing to actually demand results, and is willing to take people off the project if they're not pulling their weight.

(1) and (2) can even be the same person. Ideally, you'd want someone in (1) to have a thorough knowledge of the Lunar series in-and-out, but also to have some professional experience designing projects and leading teams. You'd want someone in (2) to have some professional leadership experience, and an ability to command some authority.

Three things, right? Well, (3) a group of dedicated people with real skill sets. Everyone wants to be a writer, with a few people being artists. Well, you also needs composers, programmers, testers, and whatnot. Otherwise the entire thing will just end up being another run-of-the-mill RPG Maker generic adventure.

If you can bring all three together, you can accomplish anything!

Oh, and I do have the experience for (1) and (2), more so for (1). KF
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Re: Lunar-net Community Effort Request!

Post by phyco126 »

As awesome as this is, there is one problem. With almost every game project I have ever seen, whether its Lunar or some other fan game, chances of it being completed are VERY slime. It has been my experience that if you pay, it gets done, if you don't, it falls apart.
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Re: Lunar-net Community Effort Request!

Post by Nobiyuki77 »

phyco126 wrote:As awesome as this is, there is one problem. With almost every game project I have ever seen, whether its Lunar or some other fan game, chances of it being completed are VERY slime. It has been my experience that if you pay, it gets done, if you don't, it falls apart.
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GhaleonOne
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Re: Lunar-net Community Effort Request!

Post by GhaleonOne »

Dang it, you beat me to it Nobi.
-G1

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Werefrog
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Re: Lunar-net Community Effort Request!

Post by Werefrog »

I hope it's a metal slime, so I can get a lot EXP.

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Re: Lunar-net Community Effort Request!

Post by Kizyr »

They're not so tough in real life... KF
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Re: Lunar-net Community Effort Request!

Post by phyco126 »

Tough, no, but hard to clean up after, yes.
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Maru
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Re: Lunar-net Community Effort Request!

Post by Maru »

...Lawls to this whole post. xD Well, except the idea part. I think it's good. :) But I'm tired, need sleep, and will return later with a REAL response. *Flutter~*

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Re: Lunar-net Community Effort Request!

Post by Dark_Fairy »

This sounds like a good idea, but as the others have said, it will require a great amount of effort and could fall apart.

Anyway, if this does end up happening, I'll help with what I can. I'll be in number 3 somewhere (following Kizyr's number system). I'll stay out of writing and art. I may have some photoshop experience with coloring my art, but I can't draw that great. As for writing, I'd be craptastic. Well, maybe not THAT bad, but still.

In other areas...I've used RPG Maker a bit in the past, but I haven't used it in a LONG time so...that's probably out of the question. I still remember how to use it, but my skill at it probably isn't as great as it was.

I could be a tester I guess or maybe a voice actor if you use them. After all, who knows how many girls might be needed to lend their voices. Plus, I RP with my friend all the time, so I have experience in that...sort of. >_>

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Re: Lunar-net Community Effort Request!

Post by Bloodrose »

Thanks everyone, I appreciate the feedback.

And yes, I'm well aware this is an EXTREMELY neive ideal, but I'd still love to give it a shot.

I understand it's difficult due to leadership qualms and biased views, but we could always lean toward a democratic approach.

It would make sense to vote on a leader based on the obvious qualities we'd expect. That way, the decision would be as much a community effort as the overall piece itself.

I think we could allow random submissions for plot summaries and vote on those as well.

And, we could continue the free voting to elect each individual member to their respected position.

Once each position has been chosen by the public, (I.E. favorite plot summary = script writer, second favorite = assistant writer, favorite sprite character = lead sprite animator, ETC.) those representatives would construct the final piece and converse amongst each other and the task leader to form the final piece.

I'm NOT SAYING there won't be multiple projects, but we'd have to start somewhere and this would be the simplest and most reasonable process for electing the official team.

Every individual would have the opportunity to contribute and vote. And even after all representatives have been elected, all ideas would still be welcome for review.

It would also allow each member's work to be viewed, admired, and critiqued and allow them to offer any and all input, after all this is still a community effort. The team would still consider requests, but they have the final say in their area-of-expertise.

Again, I know it's a shot-in-the-dark, but with a little faith and cooperation, it could be accomplished quite easily. Sometimes praying to the goddess isn't enough, you've gotta create a new destiny all your own.

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Re: Lunar-net Community Effort Request!

Post by Kizyr »

A democratic effort would fail. If you try to mix creativity and voting by the public, it'll slow everything down to a crawl. You'll also invariably encourage infighting between different people's views, particularly when one person's views aren't popular enough to make it through the voting process. And, democratic choice for who's going to work on a project would mean picking people who are popular, rather than people who are most capable of doing work, and most capable of working under the direction of whoever would head this up. (There are a whole host of other problems that "democratic creativity" would introduce, but I'll leave it at this for now.)

The better way is to limit the people who have input, decide what's to be done, and then have everyone else work towards accomplishing that--anyone who has enough disagreements can drop out. Basically, a few people can collaborate on a storyboard, and decide to incorporate feedback from other people--whether or not to incorporate feedback is discretionary and ultimately up to whoever it is that's putting together the story. After the storyboard is set, then everyone on the rest of the team needs to work towards turning that storyboard into a game/animation/etc. (whatever the format may be). Minor disagreements may merit some consideration, and minor tweaks in the story; but once it's set, it's set.

That's the main reason why it's important to have someone with actual, real-world leadership experience (preferably in a professional capacity), since those are the things you learn by doing. In other words: how to incorporate feedback while still getting something together that's coherent and consistent, how to offer a clear direction to people working on a project while still allowing room for flexibility?

A democratic voting method sounds nice, but when you're putting together a creative work, it just results in nothing ever getting done. KF
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Re: Lunar-net Community Effort Request!

Post by Bloodrose »

I understand it sounds like idealistic drivel, but I can't believe people with this much knowledge of what we're trying to achieve would be so dense as to turn democracy into a hypocritical popularity contest.

The alternative you present is barely any different from what we already have (multiple small groups putting individual projects together) aside from the incorporation of outside feedback. It wouldn't be as much of a group effort.

The task could still be completed as originally stated once the original team had been put together, they could easily manage an efficient pace, but in all honesty we've already waited a long time for another Lunar to grace the stage and Lunar Legend was simply a down-scaled port, and Dragon Song was just not what most would consider a true Lunar game.

Though we may have different views, our goal is the same and if the project is worth the effort, then the bickering will subside.

If there isn't enough faith in the idea, then obviously the small group efforts will have to be substituted, but isn't there any way to contain the urge to point at stare at the prom king and queen?

,
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Re: Lunar-net Community Effort Request!

Post by phyco126 »

I can speak from both personal experience and experience of watching various project by the side lines. Democracy doesn't work. Neither does micromanagment. You have got to get people that can do the work, has the motivation to complete the work, and a team that can throw it all together.
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Re: Lunar-net Community Effort Request!

Post by Bloodrose »

If no one is willing to believe it, then it won't happen. But if we all just gave up and said things weren't possible, things wouldn't have changed so much in just a few short years.

You can't judge people without first giving them a chance to prove you wrong.

I'm not saying there won't be people who will clash, but that's unavoidable even with people who understand the entire development process inside and out.

People hate to follow and would rather make their own visions the priority. But, it all depends on how much you want this to happen.

I tried, but I guess this won't become anything more than a dream.
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Re: Lunar-net Community Effort Request!

Post by Nobiyuki77 »

There's also the issue that many of us are simply busy. I and a couple of others were working on a Lunar DS remake at one point, but we've all had things come up that impede us from working on it. I haven't seen Sadrin online in forever, he's probably busy with other stuff, I'm also working on my book in my spare time (not to mention my job).

Most fan-based projects never get done because the amount of time that it takes to complete anything of real quality takes time and dedication, or a bunch of people in the short term at least. We're a very dedicated community, but at the same time, there's only a few of us. Most of us are also adults with full time jobs, some have families (or are looking to meet someone to start a family), and some of us have our own projects we want to pursue (like me with my book, the final draft is almost done YES!!)
-Nobi

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Re: Lunar-net Community Effort Request!

Post by Bloodrose »

*sigh* oh well I thought I'd try. But it seems there isn't enough support for the idea.

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Re: Lunar-net Community Effort Request!

Post by Kizyr »

It's another long post from the Keeper of Knowledge!

What I'm going to do here is start out with a few general comments, specifically address your posts, and wrap it up with a few things at the end.

General Comments: What I'm Really on About

Before you go on, however, read over my first post in this thread. You'll see that I'm probably giving you the most support of anyone here. Rather than just saying it'll likely fail, I'm giving you the reason that I've seen projects like this fail in the past, and offering advice on how to avoid that happening in the future. It doesn't mesh with your ideals (more on that in a moment), but that's how it'll work--if you don't want to consider said advice, that's fine, but don't say that I'm not giving any support. (What do you think I meant by "you can accomplish anything!"?)

Anyway, there are two main reasons why projects like this tend to fail. First, when there's a small group of people doing the actual leg-work (programming, graphic design, editing, etc.), gradually the amount of work each person has to do gets to the point where they can't commit time to it anymore (and, simultaneously for a lot of people, other real-life concerns get in the way of having free time to devote). Second, when there's a large group of people, the failure tends to come from no one doing enough work, or being able to work together, to actually get anything accomplished--so, you end up with too many cooks in the kitchen, or a small group of people doing the real work while everyone else is on the sidelines (which then leads back to the first problem).

Introducing some kind of democratic system to decide on storyboards and whatnot doesn't address any of those problems. Better leadership does, however. If you have someone good at the helm, then they can see to it that (a) no one person is doing too much work--that they eventually won't be able to continue or pass onto someone else, and (b) multiple people can work together on particular aspects of the project. (On that note, when people can't work together, it's usually just because of not knowing how to divide up a task so that multiple people can handle it, not because of personality differences. That's the kind of thing an effective leader can help with.)

A leader needs to provide a framework that makes it easy for many people to work together. And a leader also needs to provide a vision--that vision doesn't even need to be his/her own, but he/she just needs to make sure it's there (so, this can mean having other people work on the storyboard, and then deciding what goes through given feedback).

Point by Point: Collaboration > Majority-Rule

Moving onto specific points:
Bloodrose wrote:I understand it sounds like idealistic drivel, but I can't believe people with this much knowledge of what we're trying to achieve would be so dense as to turn democracy into a hypocritical popularity contest.
What part of it is "hypocritical"? (I do not think it means what you think it means...)

Anyway, this is the sort of thing you learn through actual leadership experience. Having voting at every stage of the project (especially when picking people to work) does slow everything down, and does invariably turn it into a popularity contest. Now, it doesn't get all pseudo-dramatic like a high school election, but more people are likely to feel that their voice hasn't been heard.

Besides, the main problem isn't that aspect, but how much it would (a) slow everything down, and (b) drastically reduce quality.
Bloodrose wrote:The alternative you present is barely any different from what we already have (multiple small groups putting individual projects together) aside from the incorporation of outside feedback. It wouldn't be as much of a group effort.
The alternative I present is something that would actually work. You're thinking of this in terms of democracy vs. authoritarianism. I'm putting this in terms of majority-rule vs collaboration (once again, this is a distinction you start to learn from having actual leadership experience for projects, particularly creative ones).

Here's a timeline of some events under your system:
1) Decide what positions need to be filled
2) "Casting call" for people to take on positions
3) Voting on each individual position (for most, it'll be unnecessary, as you'll have only a handful of people with you and no need to vote; the rest of the time, it'll just result in hurt feelings--and above alll, it'll take an extremely long time)
4) Proposing storyboards
5) Voting on storyboards (if there are any; this will also result in hurt feelings for someone)
6) Proposing timelines, work assignments
7) Voting on timelines, work assignments...
(and so on)

The voting part ends up interrupting the flow of everything, and doesn't accomplish anything by the end. Not to mention it neglects a lot of possibilities: what if someone comes in late in the game--do people have to vote on opening up a new position, then vote them in? What if someone can't work on a project anymore (but insists they'll get around to it later)--do people have to vote them off? What if you like aspects of several different storyboards, or different designs, how will you mesh them together? Voting on every single aspect eliminates a lot of options--ones that are essential in any creative endeavor.

Now, what I'm proposing is closer to this:
1) Pull together a group of people--it's open season at this point.
2) Figure out what skill sets you have among them.
3) (The "Legislative Step") Work together on a storyboard (whoever is the leader must be willing to put one together, even if it doesn't get used--it's much easier to work with and edit an existing product, than put one together from scratch). This is going to be a collaborative effort, but leaders need to provide vision and direction here so that it goes somewhere. This should form a common vision by the end.
4) Repeat #1 and #2--now that you have a common vision, try to get more people.
5) (The "Executive Step") Figure out what work needs to be done, given your skill sets, and put together a timeline.
6) Start assigning work based on the timeline.
(and so on)

Are you starting to understand how "democratic creativity" slows things down, and that eliminating constant voting is not the same as authoritarianism? In general, collaboration is a much better model, but it's a leader's job to make sure a vision is present, in order to spur everything along.
Bloodrose wrote:Though we may have different views, our goal is the same and if the project is worth the effort, then the bickering will subside.
It's not bickering that you'd need to worry about. It's inactivity. People won't fight--they simply won't do anything. And, this usually happens because there's not a clear picture of what to do.
Bloodrose wrote: If there isn't enough faith in the idea, then obviously the small group efforts will have to be substituted, but isn't there any way to contain the urge to point at stare at the prom king and queen?
Again, this isn't about being a popularity contest, but making sure that things actually get done, and people want to work on a project.
Bloodrose wrote:If no one is willing to believe it, then it won't happen. But if we all just gave up and said things weren't possible, things wouldn't have changed so much in just a few short years.
I think I've taken a lot of time to try and give advice and support.

Once You Build It, They Will Come
Bloodrose wrote:People hate to follow and would rather make their own visions the priority. But, it all depends on how much you want this to happen.
You'll find this is actually untrue. People hate to follow when they don't know why they're following someone, don't agree with who they're following, or don't feel valued (there are a host of other reasons, but I'll keep it short). But, many people prefer to follow in many circumstances, particularly when they're short on time, or ideas. If you provide the initial ideas, the initial vision, and a good plan, you'll be surprised how many more people will take notice--and, how many more people already working with you will offer up ideas of their own, that they wouldn't have originally.

Let's just take a simple example here... If we're organizing a meetup of several forum-goers (I've done this several times in the past myself), take two methods:
(a) I post saying "Anyone in the DC area? We should meet up! Anyone have any ideas? I'm open to whatever..." Chances are, nothing will get done unless someone else steps up and starts suggesting things.
(b) I post saying "Hey, there are 4-5 of us at least in the DC area. How about we meet up? How about late April?" A few people respond, I find out that mid-June is a better time, so I propose mid-June and start listing 2-3 places that I think we should go to, and welcome other suggestions. Normally no one has any other suggestions, sometimes they do; sometimes (like last Saturday) there's an alternate suggestion and we actually do both.

There's sometimes an aversion to being the first one to speak up or suggest something--sometimes because you're short on ideas, or sometimes you're worried that other people won't like it. When you step up and start providing that direction, then you invite people to start making new suggestions, coming up with their own ideas, and get the ball rolling, so to speak.

The same carries over to leading a project: if you just throw up your hands and offer to put everything to a vote, you're providing zero direction. Things are unlikely to get done that way, unless someone else steps up to lead. But, when you provide a framework, then other people are more likely to take you seriously, feel that they can realistically contribute, and will be far more willing to follow you (and even offer ideas of their own, that they may not have thought of, or wanted to offer, otherwise).

Phew! That was a while. Ok, leadership seminar over for now. Any questions? KF
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Nobiyuki77
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Re: Lunar-net Community Effort Request!

Post by Nobiyuki77 »

Kizyr wrote:Truth
*bow* You are a good leader! :-)

Incidentally, I've had an idea I've wanted to write for a long time called "Lunar: Sienna Frontier" that I still need to design. Sadly my book comes first, and I don't know quite how it ends yet, so... yeah. >> <<
-Nobi

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