Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Nobiyuki77 · Post by **Nobiyuki77** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 1:53 pm

I enjoyed the skits more in ToS2, but otherwise I mostly prefer the first.

Not a *bad* game at all though.

Dark_Fairy · Post by **Dark_Fairy** » Tue Apr 28, 2009 7:57 pm

Monde Luna wrote:Who are you and what have you done w/ Dark_Fairy? In all honesty though I am glad you like the game.

Most of my TS2 complaints have to do w/ the Symphonia cast as well. And although I am going to go out on a limb and agree that the overall storyline in TS2 is better, I personally still prefer the first. I guess sequels will never be better in my eyes.

Enjoy the ending, I hope you get the good one.

It's definitely tons better than I thought it would be. This is why for now on, I will be PLAYING a game first before I spew any comments towards it, lol. If anyone catches me doing otherwise, I give them permission to throw tomatoes at me. XD

Symphonia was a good game, there was just something lacking that made it a little boring for me. I think the reason why I like Symphonia 2 better is because it hasn't bored me at all. In the scope of the other Tales games though, it is definitely not as good as Tales of the Abyss or Tales of Vesperia, but it is still really fun.

I should have the game beaten by this weekend. My stupid English class is keeping me busy for the rest of this week. From what I heard, there is a bad, normal, and good ending. Hopefully I do get the good ending! ^_^

brightshield · Post by **brightshield** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 3:51 pm

Hmm... I forgot about this topic. You actually liked ToS2 more than 1 Dark Fairy? I'm shocked. ToS is universally considered to be a vastly superior game(and is probably my favorite RPG ever). What surprised me the most is that you liked the cast more. Most of the new characters were pretty blah, and Emil was a total ***** if you'll excuse my colorful language. Kratos wasn't even in the second game, and he's pretty much the biggest badass in the entire Tales series...

Sonix · Post by **Sonix** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 6:11 pm

Been almost a year since the thread started but its still not available in Europe

I guess I'll have to wait another month or two (is it October or November in PAL?). To be honest, I don't like Symphonia much. The story is not very interesting and predictable, the characters are nothing special and most of all, no free run (I blame myself for playing Abyss before it for this one). But I'll still get it.

Post by **Sonic#** » Wed Sep 02, 2009 10:46 pm

brightshield wrote:Hmm... I forgot about this topic. You actually liked ToS2 more than 1 Dark Fairy? I'm shocked. ToS is universally considered to be a vastly superior game(and is probably my favorite RPG ever). What surprised me the most is that you liked the cast more. Most of the new characters were pretty blah, and Emil was a total ***** if you'll excuse my colorful language. Kratos wasn't even in the second game, and he's pretty much the biggest badass in the entire Tales series...

Perhaps not universally then. /snark.

So, I'm looking to get a new game pretty soon. Could you give me reasons why I should get ToS. This is a genuine question... I've heard both good and bad things about it, both from people whose taste I trust. The bad tends to be directed towards its cliches of storytelling, as I recall.

Dark_Fairy · Post by **Dark_Fairy** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 4:15 pm

brightshield wrote:Hmm... I forgot about this topic. You actually liked ToS2 more than 1 Dark Fairy? I'm shocked. ToS is universally considered to be a vastly superior game(and is probably my favorite RPG ever). What surprised me the most is that you liked the cast more. Most of the new characters were pretty blah, and Emil was a total ***** if you'll excuse my colorful language. Kratos wasn't even in the second game, and he's pretty much the biggest badass in the entire Tales series...

Yup, you got me started on one of my rants now.

I give ToS the fact that it's game play and music is superior to ToS2 (since many of the songs in ToS2 were remixed from ToS), however, I think Emil was DEFINITELY a better character than most of Symphonia cast. Emil has tons of development. He starts off really wimpy, but then in the end becomes strong, so he's not the complete "*****" you make him out to be. I don't care much for Marta or Ritcher, however.

Most people DO consider ToS to be superior to ToS. I get that and understand that. I just prefer ToS2. It had something more exciting about it than ToS. ToS is actually really bland IMO, but at least ToS2 kept me interested in the game.

ToS can't even compare to most of the other Tales games (coming from someone who has played AT LEAST a little bit of EVERY Tales game). I'm going to tear Symphonia down into parts.

Graphics: I hated Symphonia's graphics. The 2D tales games that came out around Symphonia's time look better than the 3D wannabe chibi block characters they have for Symphonia. It wouldn't be fair to compare it to ToS2, Abyss, and Vesperia since they came out after ToS (since they obviously have superior graphics). I much perfer Destiny's 2D sprites over there attempt at 3D characters.

Game play: Symphonia's linear battles were ick. You couldn't really run from the enemies if they tried to attack you, sure you can guard, but I like the others games like Abyss where you can free run and such. Rebirth was linear as well, but at least it had 3 lines, which made it more fun.

Music: All I have to say is listen to Legendia's soundtrack. Legendia totally wipes Symphonia clean in terms of music. I actually perfer most of the other Tales soundtracks over Symphonia too, but at least Symphonia had a few good soundtracks (mainly battle themes).

Story: Most of the Tales games have pretty cliche stories, but Symphonia's is about as cliche as you can get. I'm not going to spoil anything, but you know what I'm talking about. :\

That's all I really feel like going into. I could most definitely go on, but there is one thing I have to say...

Yuri from Tales of Vesperia is the biggest badass in the Tales series.

brightshield · Post by **brightshield** » Thu Sep 03, 2009 8:22 pm

So, I'm looking to get a new game pretty soon. Could you give me reasons why I should get ToS. This is a genuine question... I've heard both good and bad things about it, both from people whose taste I trust.

I'll tell you same thing I told my friends a few days ago.

The story is great, and it becomes very twisted by the end. It's awesome really, as the game starts off seeming like it's going to be light hearted, but after the 1/4 mark it gets very twisted and fairly dark.

The characters deserve special merit as well. This game probably has the best cast of any RPG. All of the party members are pretty cool, and are developed well. Kratos in particular is probably my favorite RPG character ever. The main character Lloyd is simple minded, but badass when he needs to be. Colette is like an extremely goofy and clumsy version of Yuna from FFX. Genis is Lloyd's 12 year old friend. He's a smart ass and extremely intelligent(which is a weird combination). His sister Raine is your teacher. She's the smartest character and your typical healer. Kratos is a master level swordsman, and a mercernary that joins your party to protect Colette. Zelos is the typical ladies man that walks around with like 5 girlfriends at a time. Regal is a badass martial artist that refuses to use his hands in battle due to a past sin(even going as far as to wear handcuffs normally). Sheena is a tomboy, and the party's ninja and summoner. Presea is a stoic girl who is much stronger than she looks.

These are only very basic archetype descriptions, and by the end you'll see at least half of these characters differently, due to the plot twists.

Some of the villains are cool too, but the heroes are what makes this game.

Now, the gameplay is typical Tales fair. Battles are standard real time fair, but the dungeons are great, and have cool puzzles. I really like Ymir forest.

Music is very good, but not up to part with some of the FF soundtracks. The voice acting however is some of the best I've ever seen in a game. Kratos is played by the legendary Cam Clarke himself, Regal is played by Crispin Freeman, Raine is played by Kari Walhgren, Sheena is Jennifer Hale, Presea is Tara Strong etc. Pretty much all of the main characters are extremely well done, some of the random guys are bleh, but that's to be expected.

Graphics are pretty good, but the cell shading doesn't really compare to something like Wind Waker or Dragon Quest 8.

The bad tends to be directed towards its cliches of storytelling, as I recall.

It starts off really cliche. Things change a lot as the story progresses. I love it for it's simple beginnings and twisted realities.

I think Emil was DEFINITELY a better character than most of Symphonia cast.

lol, really? I can't think of a single likable trait he has.

Emil has tons of development.

Tons of development =/= good development.

He starts off really wimpy, but then in the end becomes strong, so he's not the complete "*****" you make him out to be.

It's called *plot protection*, every hero gets this to some extent. Even a wimpy MC will never be completely worthless by the end.

I don't care much for Marta or Ritcher, however.

I hate Ritcher(I think this is spelled wrong, but whatever), and Marta is okay to me. Part of the reason why I hate Emil is how lame he is when it comes to Marta. I was just like "Dude, she obviously likes you, just go for it you frickin sissy!"

ToS can't even compare to most of the other Tales games (coming from someone who has played AT LEAST a little bit of EVERY Tales game). I'm going to tear Symphonia down into parts.

Go for it. Symphonia is clearly one of the better Tales games, most of them aren't so great really. I'll defend that statement to the end.

Graphics: I hated Symphonia's graphics. The 2D tales games that came out around Symphonia's time look better than the 3D wannabe chibi block characters they have for Symphonia. It wouldn't be fair to compare it to ToS2, Abyss, and Vesperia since they came out after ToS (since they obviously have superior graphics). I much perfer Destiny's 2D sprites over there attempt at 3D characters.

They were cell shaded and looked very nice. And if by Destiny 2, you mean Eternia, I laugh at the thought of those being superior. You may prefer them, but Symphonia's graphics were technically more proficient in every possible way.

Game play: Symphonia's linear battles were ick. You couldn't really run from the enemies if they tried to attack you, sure you can guard, but I like the others games like Abyss where you can free run and such. Rebirth was linear as well, but at least it had 3 lines, which made it more fun.

Comparing it to games that came out after it is unfair. Symphonia's battle system is quicker and easier to use than any of the previous Tales games. Destiny was especially slow and clunky; hell Legendia came out afterwards and it was a major downgrade from Symphonia.

Music: All I have to say is listen to Legendia's soundtrack. Legendia totally wipes Symphonia clean in terms of music. I actually perfer most of the other Tales soundtracks over Symphonia too, but at least Symphonia had a few good soundtracks (mainly battle themes).

I like the character themes in Symphonia, not so much the battle themes. Legendia had good music, but it was unmemorable as hell. I can remember like 1 song from that game.

Story: Most of the Tales games have pretty cliche stories, but Symphonia's is about as cliche as you can get. I'm not going to spoil anything, but you know what I'm talking about. :\

Cliche =/= bad. All Tales games are equally cliche, the series doesn't have a single original concept in it. Symphonia works wonders with the cliches it's given though and everything is much deeper than it originally appears, while something like Tales of Destiny 2(Eternia) is literally just defined by it's cliches. Also, if you don't like cliches why in the heck are you into Lunar? Lunar and Tales are both very cliche series.

Yuri from Tales of Vesperia is the biggest badass in the Tales series.

He's the most badass main character in the Tales series. Jade from Abyss, Leon from Destiny, and Kratos from Symphonia pwn him in overall badassness though. Yuri is more of a smart ass really, he can be badass at times though. The characters that I mentioned are badass all the time.

Dark_Fairy · Post by **Dark_Fairy** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 2:51 am

I think Emil was DEFINITELY a better character than most of Symphonia cast.

lol, really? I can't think of a single likable trait he has.

Emil has tons of development.

Tons of development =/= good development.

How did Emil NOT have good development? Would you have preferred him to stay wimpy? Plus, he became strong. I'll say it again...how is that NOT good development?

ToS can't even compare to most of the other Tales games (coming from someone who has played AT LEAST a little bit of EVERY Tales game). I'm going to tear Symphonia down into parts.

Go for it. Symphonia is clearly one of the better Tales games, most of them aren't so great really. I'll defend that statement to the end.

Just because you like Symphonia doesn't "clearly" make it one of the better Tales games. I'll defend THAT to the end.

Graphics: I hated Symphonia's graphics. The 2D tales games that came out around Symphonia's time look better than the 3D wannabe chibi block characters they have for Symphonia. It wouldn't be fair to compare it to ToS2, Abyss, and Vesperia since they came out after ToS (since they obviously have superior graphics). I much perfer Destiny's 2D sprites over there attempt at 3D characters.

They were cell shaded and looked very nice. And if by Destiny 2, you mean Eternia, I laugh at the thought of those being superior. You may prefer them, but Symphonia's graphics were technically more proficient in every possible way.

2D graphics, not Destiny 2. The original Destiny had some pretty cute and nice looking 2D graphics (especially the remake). Plus, I call Eternia "Eternia" and Destiny 2 "Destiny 2".

Game play: Symphonia's linear battles were ick. You couldn't really run from the enemies if they tried to attack you, sure you can guard, but I like the others games like Abyss where you can free run and such. Rebirth was linear as well, but at least it had 3 lines, which made it more fun.

Comparing it to games that came out after it is unfair. Symphonia's battle system is quicker and easier to use than any of the previous Tales games. Destiny was especially slow and clunky; hell Legendia came out afterwards and it was a major downgrade from Symphonia.

Yes, Legendia was a major downgrade from Symphonia in terms of the battle system. That's about the only thing I agree with you on right now. Rebirth came out a year later than Symphonia and clearly had a better battle system, so that isn't much of a time difference at all. Yes, it's unfair to compare it to the later games, but I was mainly comparing it to Rebirth since it came out close to Symphonia. Yes, Destiny had a slow battle system, but the remake is slightly better.

Music: All I have to say is listen to Legendia's soundtrack. Legendia totally wipes Symphonia clean in terms of music. I actually perfer most of the other Tales soundtracks over Symphonia too, but at least Symphonia had a few good soundtracks (mainly battle themes).

I like the character themes in Symphonia, not so much the battle themes. Legendia had good music, but it was unmemorable as hell. I can remember like 1 song from that game.

You can't tell me hearing "Ancient Ship" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg-dmYgBvhk&fmt=18) upon entering the dungeon isn't memorable. Plus, how many games have bright and cheery songs like "The Birds Chirp, I Sing" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bckgyhCo7Lw&fmt=18) with vocals while your walking around near the beginning of the game and later on? Most games only have vocal songs on special occasions and not while your actually playing the game.

Story: Most of the Tales games have pretty cliche stories, but Symphonia's is about as cliche as you can get. I'm not going to spoil anything, but you know what I'm talking about. :\

Cliche =/= bad. All Tales games are equally cliche, the series doesn't have a single original concept in it. Symphonia works wonders with the cliches it's given though and everything is much deeper than it originally appears, while something like Tales of Destiny 2(Eternia) is literally just defined by it's cliches. Also, if you don't like cliches why in the heck are you into Lunar? Lunar and Tales are both very cliche series.

I never said Cliche = bad. I'm saying Symphonia extremely over does it with the cliche and thus makes it sort of dislikable. Lunar does cliche in a memorable, good way. By the way, I never said I DISLIKED symphonia completely. Its just one of my least favorite in the Tales Series.

Yuri from Tales of Vesperia is the biggest badass in the Tales series.

He's the most badass main character in the Tales series. Jade from Abyss, Leon from Destiny, and Kratos from Symphonia pwn him in overall badassness though. Yuri is more of a smart ass really, he can be badass at times though. The characters that I mentioned are badass all the time.

Definition taken from the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

"1 often vulgar : ready to cause or get into trouble : mean <pretending to be a badass gunslinger — L. L. King>
2 often vulgar : of formidable strength or skill <such a badass guitar player — N'Gai Croal>"

Yuri fits both of those descriptions throughout the whole game.

brightshield · Post by **brightshield** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 4:50 pm

lol, I had this massive reply I was going to post, but my damn computer shut down... I'll keep it more brief this time.

Would you have preferred him to stay wimpy?

Yes, at least somewhat.

Plus, he became strong.

Did you not read my plot protection comment before? All main characters will be able to fight decently by the end of an RPG, no matter how wimpy they start out. That's just a general rule for games, and anime. Now factor out the plot protection, and Emil is just a wimpy little *****.

I'll say it again...how is that NOT good development?

180s are rarely pulled off effectively, and Emil is no exception. Other characters that fail miserably at this are Luke from Abyss, and Squall from FF8.

Luke's development is literally this.

1. I'm a jerk
2. Everyone hates me now...
3. I'm going to change.
4. I'm the nicest guy in the group now.

Squall from FF8 is even worse. His development is this.

1. (very end of disc 2)Rinoa is an annoying and a stupid *****. I don't care if she falls to her death, as I'm too busy to help her. Afterall, it's not like she's the only one in danger.

2. (the very beginning of disc 3)Nooooooooo!!! I can't live without her!!!!!!!!! I'd die in an instant for her!!!!!!!!!!!

Granted I can see 180s happening over a few years, but RPGs usually take place in a few weeks/months. That's just way to short of a time span to completely change someone's entire personality.

I also find it funny that you would defend Emil so much. He's widely regarded as one of the worst RPG protagonists ever. Even one game company(I believe it was IGN), named him the 4th worst game hero ever...

Just because you like Symphonia doesn't "clearly" make it one of the better Tales games. I'll defend THAT to the end.

My opinion of the game has nothing to do with me saying that it's one of the better games in the series. I'm basing that off of it's review scores. Symphonia got better scores than any other game in the series. I'm fairly good at seperating my favorites from what is considered best. For example, I like Legendia more than Phantasia, but Phantasia is without a doubt the better game.

Symphonia is also the most popular game in the series, but that hardly means anything. I mean look at something like the Twilight fad. That series is nothing but poorly written garbage. The two leads are suicidal emos, the love story is forced and ridiculous, the climax of the series consists of two groups staring at each other and then walking away, Jacob falls in love with a 1 year old, and the writing is flat out terrible. There are some really ridiculous parts as well. Such as Bella being fine with Edward breaking into her house and spying on her when she sleeps. That's flat out definition abuse, but teenage girls overlook this because "Edward is teh cooooolest!", and all teens want to be watched over by Edward... it kind of makes me lose faith in humanity. Not to mention that Edward isn't even a good character to begin with. He isn't deep, interesting, cool, realistic, or likable in any sense of the word.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, I just hate that series more than any other. The critics see the flaws of the series, but the blind fangirls cannot. So that's why I place more faith in pro reviews for games, movies, and anime.

2D graphics, not Destiny 2.

My bad.

The original Destiny had some pretty cute and nice looking 2D graphics (especially the remake).

If you're honestly saying that Destiny had technically more proficient graphics than Symphonia, then we'd best stop this debate here.

Plus, I call Eternia "Eternia" and Destiny 2 "Destiny 2".

Gotcha.

Rebirth came out a year later than Symphonia and clearly had a better battle system, so that isn't much of a time difference at all. Yes, it's unfair to compare it to the later games, but I was mainly comparing it to Rebirth since it came out close to Symphonia.

Three things.

1. Rebirth used a different type of battle system that was fairly different from most of the series IIRC.

2. 1 year is a long time when it comes to games. Look at how much different FF9, and FF10 are. Yet, they only came out 1 year apart.

3. My point still stands. Symphonia had a better battle system than any of the previousgames.

You can't tell me hearing "Ancient Ship" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kg-dmYgBvhk&fmt=18) upon entering the dungeon isn't memorable.

I still don't remember that one.

Plus, how many games have bright and cheery songs like "The Birds Chirp, I Sing" (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bckgyhCo7Lw&fmt=18) with vocals while your walking around near the beginning of the game and later on?

I do somewhat remember this one. I love the song that comes on in the main town at night. I can also remember this goofy theme that comes on for Norma all the time, but I don't like it that much.

Most games only have vocal songs on special occasions and not while your actually playing the game.

Considering that I VASTLY prefer instrumental songs, this doesn't really mean much to me.

I'm saying Symphonia extremely over does it with the cliche and thus makes it sort of dislikable.

Which is dead wrong. Explain how Symphonia is more cliche than something like Abyss, or Vesperia, or most of the series for that matter. Enlighten me.

Lunar does cliche in a memorable, good way.

I smell extreme bias...

By the way, I never said I DISLIKED symphonia completely.

I never said you did.

Definition taken from the Merriam-Webster dictionary:

"1 often vulgar : ready to cause or get into trouble : mean <pretending to be a badass gunslinger — L. L. King>
2 often vulgar : of formidable strength or skill <such a badass guitar player — N'Gai Croal>"

Yuri fits both of those descriptions throughout the whole game.

I was referring more to the Japanese character archetype for badass. You know the guy that's quiet, calm, collected, cool, strong, intelligent, and usually has control of the situation.

Dark_Fairy · Post by **Dark_Fairy** » Mon Sep 07, 2009 5:39 pm

Plus, he became strong.

Did you not read my plot protection comment before? All main characters will be able to fight decently by the end of an RPG, no matter how wimpy they start out. That's just a general rule for games, and anime. Now factor out the plot protection, and Emil is just a wimpy little *****.

I'll say it again...how is that NOT good development?

180s are rarely pulled off effectively, and Emil is no exception. Other characters that fail miserably at this are Luke from Abyss, and Squall from FF8.

Luke's development is literally this.

1. I'm a jerk
2. Everyone hates me now...
3. I'm going to change.
4. I'm the nicest guy in the group now.

I agree about the Luke thing, however, Emil didn't get on my nerves like Luke did. I found Emil likeable. I seriously think this is stupid. I like Emil, can you please get over it? I don't consider him a whimp.

I also find it funny that you would defend Emil so much. He's widely regarded as one of the worst RPG protagonists ever. Even one game company(I believe it was IGN), named him the 4th worst game hero ever...

Just because a website lists something doesn't make it the absolute truth. People have opinions.

My opinion of the game has nothing to do with me saying that it's one of the better games in the series. I'm basing that off of it's review scores. Symphonia got better scores than any other game in the series. I'm fairly good at seperating my favorites from what is considered best. For example, I like Legendia more than Phantasia, but Phantasia is without a doubt the better game.

Symphonia is also the most popular game in the series, but that hardly means anything. I mean look at something like the Twilight fad. That series is nothing but poorly written garbage. The two leads are suicidal emos, the love story is forced and ridiculous, the climax of the series consists of two groups staring at each other and then walking away, Jacob falls in love with a 1 year old, and the writing is flat out terrible. There are some really ridiculous parts as well. Such as Bella being fine with Edward breaking into her house and spying on her when she sleeps. That's flat out definition abuse, but teenage girls overlook this because "Edward is teh cooooolest!", and all teens want to be watched over by Edward... it kind of makes me lose faith in humanity. Not to mention that Edward isn't even a good character to begin with. He isn't deep, interesting, cool, realistic, or likable in any sense of the word.

Anyway, sorry for the rant, I just hate that series more than any other. The critics see the flaws of the series, but the blind fangirls cannot. So that's why I place more faith in pro reviews for games, movies, and anime.

Symphonia got good reviews because it’s one of the few RPGs released for the Gamecube. Yes, it was a good game in some aspects. However, it was boring to me. Plus, all people have different opinions. Just because a site reviews a game and calls it good doesn’t automatically make it good. That goes for any game. Everyone has different tastes, especially when it comes to the Tales Series. If you go to any Tales based discussion board, everyone has different opinions. Most people either like or hate Symphonia. I just happen to like the other Tales games better.

Also, comparing Symphonia to Twilight is sort of ridiculous. The two of them are nothing alike in terms of their fangirls/boys. If anything, a better comparison would be FF7 to Symphonia. They are both the most popular of their respective series, but that doesn’t make either one of them the best in their series just because of the fans and reviews.

If you're honestly saying that Destiny had technically more proficient graphics than Symphonia, then we'd best stop this debate here.

3D graphics doesn’t equal better graphics.

Most games only have vocal songs on special occasions and not while your actually playing the game.

Considering that I VASTLY prefer instrumental songs, this doesn't really mean much to me.

I’m stating how it makes the game more unique. It adds a nice touch to the game, something that instrumental can’t do sometimes.

I'm saying Symphonia extremely over does it with the cliche and thus makes it sort of dislikable.

Which is dead wrong. Explain how Symphonia is more cliche than something like Abyss, or Vesperia, or most of the series for that matter. Enlighten me.

Yes, the other Tales games are cliché. I want to know how you think it’s better than Abyss and Vesperia.

Lunar does cliche in a memorable, good way.

I smell extreme bias...

There is no bias. I’ve made my point about Symphonia. Let’s leave it at that.

All I have to say is every person is going to have their own opinions. Every fan of the Tales Series has their own opinions about the games. I just don’t like Symphonia as well as the other games.

Lunar Eclipse · Post by **Lunar Eclipse** » Tue Sep 08, 2009 5:56 pm

brightshield wrote:My opinion of the game has nothing to do with me saying that it's one of the better games in the series. I'm basing that off of it's review scores. Symphonia got better scores than any other game in the series. I'm fairly good at seperating my favorites from what is considered best. For example, I like Legendia more than Phantasia, but Phantasia is without a doubt the better game.

It only got notably better scores in North America, and really only because it was a halfway decent RPG for an RPG-starved console. I'm not saying that you're not allowed to like the game and have it as a favorite, but to say that it's definitively better based on review scores is fairly ludicrous. If you converse with the Tales community outside of a Symphonia-centric board, you'll find that most find the game to be fairly bland in comparison to the rest of the series, particularly in the character department. There are of course exceptions. I know Cyllya, who's been a major member of the Tales community, has always preferred the games in the Aselia universe, but then I like Legendia the most even though I can see and acknowledge the game's many shortcomings. Also, I don't see how Phantasia is "without a doubt the better game" when it's so riddled with plotholes that it's incomprehensible. They have you change the past by shooting Dhaos off into the future rather than the present, but when you return to the present, your village is still destroyed? How does that work, especially considering that reviving the mana tree in the past did clearly affect the present? It's just a mess that's never been properly sorted out, even in the PSP version.

brightshield wrote:Symphonia is also the most popular game in the series ...

Again, only in North America, and only because there are so few people who've been exposed to the rest of the series outside of what's on the Nintendo consoles. I'm hoping Tales of Graces will at least partially rectify that, assuming it's released here.

brightshield wrote:3. My point still stands. Symphonia had a better battle system than any of the previousgames.

I don't see how it's really even appropriate to compare Symphonia's battle system to the previous games when it's the first 3-D system. Plus, if you're going to do that, I could just as easily argue that Destiny 2's is actually better because it represents the perfection of the basic single-line system whereas Symphonia is the absolute roughest form of multi-line.

brightshield wrote:Considering that I VASTLY prefer instrumental songs, this doesn't really mean much to me.

I can agree with a preference for instrumental songs over vocal ones, but how does Symphonia even adequately represent something instrumental when its synthesized instruments are so heinously bad? I'm not sure how Sakuraba managed to take a step down from Destiny 2, but he definitely did. His only well-balanced songs for Symphonia chime in during the FMVs. Everything else is so overwhelmingly blaring and poorly synthesized that it really detracts from the pieces. Just listen to Beat the Angel. There's a harpsichord part that would've been nice if Sakuraba hadn't tossed some overpowering synth on top of it that's repetitive and contributes nothing aside from dampening the interesting part. Ultimately, I've never understood why people enjoy Symphonia's soundtrack. I even like a lot of what Sakuraba does (Valkyrie Profile, Eternal Sonata, Baten Kaitos), but Tales tends to be a dumping ground for him as far as I've seen.

But anyway, I just think it's a misrepresentation to say that most people think Symphonia's the best in the series when that's far from the case. I mean, a lot of people haven't even been exposed to the rest of the games in the series, so they don't really have the frame of reference to voice their opinions in the first place. Again, I'm not saying it's a problem to have Symphonia as a favorite, but it's not decidedly better than any other mothership in the series, particularly when there are so many people out there who chide its weaker character interaction (assuming you look beyond boards dedicated more or less exclusively to Symphonia). So yeah, that went nowhere. Just thought I'd toss out my point of view.

brightshield · Post by **brightshield** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 4:06 pm

I agree about the Luke thing

Yeah, he's the worst MC in the series. How about Squall? His development is at least twice as bad.

Emil didn't get on my nerves like Luke did. I found Emil likeable. I seriously think this is stupid. I like Emil, can you please get over it?

So apparently you don't have a problem with wimpy main characters then. That's all I'm getting at.

I don't consider him a whimp.

Please, strip away his plot protection and he's more of a wimp than Keele from Eternia...

Just because a website lists something doesn't make it the absolute truth. People have opinions.

Just saying that I find it funny.

Symphonia got good reviews because it’s one of the few RPGs released for the Gamecube.

Lame excuse. Tales of Destiny got mediocre reviews and it was one of the FIRST rpgs released on the PS1. Vesperia also didn't get scored as highly, and the 360 is just as JRPG starved as the Gamecube was.

If anything, a better comparison would be FF7 to Symphonia. They are both the most popular of their respective series, but that doesn’t make either one of them the best in their series just because of the fans and reviews.

FF7 would be a horrible example. That game got great reviews and extremely high sales. I was saying that reviews > sales. So I brought up Twilight to support my point since that series has low reviews, but high sales.

3D graphics doesn’t equal better graphics.

Gamecube graphics are superior to early PS1 graphics. That's just fact. Graphics ALWAYS improve from console to console. It's got nothing to do with which you prefer at all. Symphonia > Destiny in graphics, just like Vesperia > Symphonia in graphics. Personally, I prefer sprites like you, but I can admit that they are objectively inferior.

I’m stating how it makes the game more unique.

It is fairly unique, but I wouldn't say that the song is particularly good.

Yes, the other Tales games are cliché.

Just as cliche as Symphonia...

I want to know how you think it’s better than Abyss and Vesperia.

The main problem with Abyss is the horrible storyline. It's probably the worst in the entire series. It could have been okay, but it drags on for the last third of the game. I mean come on, every major villain reveals that they survived, and the game literally makes you fight them all over again. The character development was crappy as well, with Luke being my prime example.

Vesperia is better than Abyss, but still not quite at Symphonia's level. The problem with Vesperia is the story as well. It's a little too straightforward and simple for it's own good. Still, Yuri was an amazing main character, and there was some good character development in this game. This is the second highest rated game in the series(although it's not my second favorite).

Symphonia I believe to be the best because of the story and characters. The story of Symphonia actually had some depth to it, and it was by far the most complex tale in the series. The character development was the best in the series as well. The characters actually change in realistic ways; unlike characters like Luke and Emil...

There is no bias.

Lunar - cliche = good
Symphonia - cliche = bad

That sounds like bias to me. Cliche is cliche. If it's a flaw for Symphonia, then it's a flaw for all games that use cliches.

I just don’t like Symphonia as well as the other games.

I get that by now. You really don't like Symphonia too much. I mean you even put a cheap cash in(Symphonia 2) above it...

brightshield · Post by **brightshield** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 6:07 pm

It only got notably better scores in North America, and really only because it was a halfway decent RPG for an RPG-starved console.

I don't buy this excuse. The same can be said of Destiny and Vesperia, but Symphonia still out scored and out sold both of them.

If you converse with the Tales community outside of a Symphonia-centric board, you'll find that most find the game to be fairly bland in comparison to the rest of the series, particularly in the character department.

That's because like Dark Fairy said, Symphonia is the FF7 of this series. It's by far the most popular game in the series, thus many people exaggerate the games flaws while ignoring the EXACT same flaws in the other games. It's sad really.

There are of course exceptions. I know Cyllya, who's been a major member of the Tales community, has always preferred the games in the Aselia universe, but then I like Legendia the most even though I can see and acknowledge the game's many shortcomings.

Mind telling me which of the games are in the Aselia universe? I'm curious as to which type of fan I lean more towards. My top 5 favorite games in the series are these.

1. Symphonia
2. Destiny
3. Vesperia
4. Legendia
5. Phantasia

I think I'd like Rebirth a lot as well, but I've only played a little bit of my friend's copy.

Also, I don't see how Phantasia is "without a doubt the better game" when it's so riddled with plotholes that it's incomprehensible. They have you change the past by shooting Dhaos off into the future rather than the present, but when you return to the present, your village is still destroyed? How does that work, especially considering that reviving the mana tree in the past did clearly affect the present? It's just a mess that's never been properly sorted out, even in the PSP version.

Phantasia does have plot holes, but it's still a better plot than Legendia. Legendia doesn't even have a plot in the second half. It's just a bunch of character quests really. That really hurt the story for me. As a result, we got a great cast, but a very mediocre story. Plus, Phantasia gets credit for being the most innovative game in the series(inventing the battle system, summon spirits, and well lots of things).

Again, only in North America, and only because there are so few people who've been exposed to the rest of the series outside of what's on the Nintendo consoles.

Again with the excuses. FF7 and Symphonia were well received because they are some of the best that their respective series have to offer, not because they got lucky or anything of the sort.

I'm not sure how Sakuraba managed to take a step down from Destiny 2, but he definitely did.

If you're referring to Eternia I disagree 100%.

Ultimately, I've never understood why people enjoy Symphonia's soundtrack. I even like a lot of what Sakuraba does (Valkyrie Profile, Eternal Sonata, Baten Kaitos), but Tales tends to be a dumping ground for him as far as I've seen.

Two things.

1. I love certain songs in Symphonia, but overall Valkyrie Profile and Baten Kaitos are superior soundtracks. Eternal Sonata's original songs are bleh, but the Chopin songs are all great.

2. I'm not much of Sakuraba fan actually. I prefer many game composers to him.

Lunar Eclipse · Post by **Lunar Eclipse** » Wed Sep 09, 2009 7:17 pm

brightshield wrote:I don't buy this excuse. The same can be said of Destiny and Vesperia, but Symphonia still out scored and out sold both of them.

Again, only in North America. The same can't be said of Vesperia and Destiny. Neither game is on a console devoid of worthwhile RPGs. I know you mentioned you felt the XBox360 was RPG-starved, but it's really not considering it has Eternal Sonata, Lost Odyssey, Blue Dragon, Infinite Undiscovery, Star Ocean 4, Enchanted Arms, The Last Remnant, Mass Effect, Oblivion, Fallout 3, Fable 2, and always the looming prospect of FF13. The GameCube had, what, Baten Kaitos and its sequel, Fire Emblem, Crystal Chronicles, and Paper Mario plus a handful of Dreamcast ports? And Symphonia made it out way ahead of most of those titles to boot.

At any rate, worldwide sales are as follows:

Tales of Phantasia, Super Famicom, December 15th 1995, 212,000 copies
Tales of Destiny, PlayStation, December 23rd 1997, 1.139 million copies
Tales of Phantasia, PlayStation, December 23rd 1998, 769,000 copies
Tales of Phantasia Narikiri Dungeon, GameBoy Color, November 10th 2000, 136,000 copies
Tales of Eternia, PlayStation, November 30th 2000, 873,000 copies
Tales of Fandom Vol.1, PlayStation, January 31st 2002, 94,000 copies
Tales of the World Narikiri Dungeon 2, GameBoy Advance, October 25th 2002, 184,000 copies
Tales of Destiny 2, PlayStation 2, November 28th 2002, 977,000 copies
Tales of the World Summoners Lineage, GameBoy Advance, March 7th 2003, 100,000 copies
Tales of Phantasia, GameBoy Advance, August 1st 2003, 314,000 copies
Tales of Symphonia, GameCube, August 29th 2003, 953,000 copies
Tales of Symphonia, PlayStation 2, September 22nd 2004, 486,000 copies
Tales of Rebirth, PlayStation 2, December 16th 2004, 605,000 copies
Tales of the World Narikiri Dungeon 3, January 6th 2005, 123,000 copies
Tales of Eternia, PlayStation Portable, March 3rd 2005, 398,000 copies
Tales of Legendia, PlayStation 2, August 25th 2005, 397,000 copies
Tales of the Abyss, PlayStation 2, December 15th 2005, 734,000 copies
Tales of Phantasia, PlayStation Portable, September 7th 2006, 136,000 copies
Tales of the Tempest, DS, October 26th 2006, 301,000 copies
Tales of Destiny, PlayStation 2, November 30th 2006, 395,000 copies
Tales of the World Radiant Mythology, PlayStation Portable, December 21st 2006, 305,000 copies
Tales of Destiny 2, PlayStation Portable, February 15th 2007, 129,000 copies
Tales of Fandom Vol.2, PlayStation 2, June 28th 2007, 95,000 copies
Tales of Innocence, DS, December 6th 2007, 160,000 copies

Destiny has sold the most even with extremely minimal North American sales, followed by the JP-only ToD2. GC Symphonia follows that only due to its somewhat random North American popularity. Eternia and PSX Phantasia would probably be beating it out as well without that. If you want to throw in the PS2 port as well that's one thing, but then you'll need to start counting the collective of Destiny/DestinyR/DestinyR:DC, Phantasia SFC/Phantasia PSX/Phantasia GBA, etc. In short, though I think the sales indicate nothing (particularly with the way that they previously uptrended insanely and have now downtrended again), the sales certainly don't support your point even from a purely numerical point of view.

As for scores, Famitsu listed Abyss, Innocence, and Vesperia as all besting Symphonia, and Eternia, Destiny 2, and Hearts were all just one point behind it.

brightshield wrote:That's because like Dark Fairy said, Symphonia is the FF7 of this series. It's by far the most popular game in the series, thus many people exaggerate the games flaws while ignoring the EXACT same flaws in the other games. It's sad really.

I do think people point out the flaws a lot (and certainly more than they ought to), but there are so many people who claim that the game's flawless that it's hard to resist being overly critical to compensate.

brightshield wrote:Mind telling me which of the games are in the Aselia universe? I'm curious as to which type of fan I lean more towards.

1. Tales of Symphonia
2. Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World
3. Tales of Phantasia
4. Tales of Phantasia: Narikiri Dungeon
5. Tales of Phantasia: Summoner's Lineage

That's the chronological order rather than the order of release, by the way. Also, ND and SL never came out here, and we only got the somewhat clunky GBA version of Phantasia with a pretty poor translation that they apparently ran through spell check in such a way that it switched the Ragnarok War to the Kangaroo War.

brightshield wrote:Phantasia does have plot holes, but it's still a better plot than Legendia. Legendia doesn't even have a plot in the second half. It's just a bunch of character quests really. That really hurt the story for me. As a result, we got a great cast, but a very mediocre story. Plus, Phantasia gets credit for being the most innovative game in the series(inventing the battle system, summon spirits, and well lots of things).

I won't deny that it has more interesting plot potential, but I don't think it's utilized well. The characters have practically no personality at all unless you watch the skits they tacked on in the PSX version, and the whole thing is pulled off poorly. Even though people tend to hate it, I prefer the OVA portrayal since it at least makes more sense and Dhaos' antiheroism doesn't seem like a complete afterthought.

As for Legendia, I agree that the character quests should've been incorporated into the game itself, perhaps reserving an extended one for Grune until after the main quest ended, but generally speaking, I thought the more linear plot worked well since it didn't get bogged down in the technobabble and other general drivel that tends to weigh on Tales games. It allowed the characters to shine.

brightshield wrote:]Again with the excuses. FF7 and Symphonia were well received because they are some of the best that their respective series have to offer, not because they got lucky or anything of the sort.

It is because it got lucky, though. First of all, Nintendo funded extra advertising for the North American release of Symphonia, so the word got out to more people. There was next to no advertising for Legendia, Abyss, Phantasia, Radiant Mythology, and Vesperia. Second, you can't possibly believe that the sales are an accurate reflection of reception when something like Dawn of the New World, which I know wasn't satisfactory to a lot of fans, still sold more than every other North American Tales release aside from the original Symphonia. The fact is that several factors contributed to the game's success here, including timing, the console chosen, Nintendo's aid, etc.

brightshield wrote:If you're referring to Eternia I disagree 100%.

No one calls Eternia Destiny 2 any longer. To avoid confusion, most fans use Destiny II if the localized name must be used since our version used the Roman numeral and the true Destiny 2 used the Arabic numeral. Regardless, though, calling the game Destiny II is all but obsolete nowadays. Even Namco Bandai of America themselves have started listing it as Eternia on buttons at talesrpg.com and other affiliated sites.

brightshield · Post by **brightshield** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 4:22 pm

Neither game is on a console devoid of worthwhile RPGs.

I disagree completely with the bold part.

I know you mentioned you felt the XBox360 was RPG-starved, but it's really not considering it has Eternal Sonata, Lost Odyssey, Blue Dragon,

These were the only JRPGs to come out before Vesperia on the 360.

Infinite Undiscovery, Star Ocean 4, Enchanted Arms, The Last Remnant,

These all came out after Vesperia IIRC, so they don't count.

Mass Effect, Oblivion, Fallout 3, Fable 2,

These aren't JRPGs which is what I referring to.

And Symphonia made it out way ahead of most of those titles to boot.

There was like what 3 JRPGs on the 360 before Vesperia? That still sounds pretty JRPG starved to me.

It was even worse on the Playstation. Destiny only had to contend with Wild ARMS, and Suikoden. There were other JRPGs out, but they were practically unheard of.

In short, though I think the sales indicate nothing (particularly with the way that they previously uptrended insanely and have now downtrended again), the sales certainly don't support your point even from a purely numerical point of view.

I agree with you. One of my points was that review scores indicate the quality of a game. My point with Twilight was that sales don't really mean much, as that series is known to be garbage.

As for scores, Famitsu listed Abyss, Innocence, and Vesperia as all besting Symphonia, and Eternia, Destiny 2, and Hearts were all just one point behind it.

Famitsu is just one company. The total average is what matters.

I do think people point out the flaws a lot (and certainly more than they ought to), but there are so many people who claim that the game's flawless that it's hard to resist being overly critical to compensate.

People get ridiculous with it though. The FF6 fanbase is particularly bad with this type of thing. Like the people who claim that Sephiroth isn't extremely deep. Okay, that's a fair assessment, as he's not as deep as someone like Krelian from Xenogears. However, he's far deeper than Kefka. They say it's okay for Kefka not to have any depth... but it's a major flaw for Sephiroth to not have a lot of depth(even though he's far deeper than Kefka).

I was seeing major bias coming from Dark Fairy as well. Symphonia isn't so great because it uses lots of cliches, yet every other game in the series uses JUST AS MANY cliches. It's somehow a major flaw for Symphonia, but not even a minor flaw for some of the other games or Lunar for that matter.

1. Tales of Symphonia
2. Tales of Symphonia: Dawn of the New World
3. Tales of Phantasia
4. Tales of Phantasia: Narikiri Dungeon
5. Tales of Phantasia: Summoner's Lineage

I'd either go with the Destiny or Aselia games then. Symphonia is my favorite game in the series, but Symphonia 2 was just a shameless cash-in(much like the FF7 spin-offs). Destiny is my second favorite game in the series, but I never got to play the Destiny 2. Phantasia was also pretty good. It really depends on how much I would like Destiny 2.

That's the chronological order rather than the order of release, by the way.

I gotcha.

Also, ND and SL never came out here, and we only got the somewhat clunky GBA version of Phantasia with a pretty poor translation that they apparently ran through spell check in such a way that it switched the Ragnarok War to the Kangaroo War.

Yeah, I remember the Phantasia rom being better than the GBA port.

As for Legendia, I agree that the character quests should've been incorporated into the game itself, perhaps reserving an extended one for Grune until after the main quest ended, but generally speaking, I thought the more linear plot worked well since it didn't get bogged down in the technobabble and other general drivel that tends to weigh on Tales games. It allowed the characters to shine.

Sadly, the main characters were all that shined in Legendia. Side characters were some of the most annoying in the series(especially Curtis), and the villains were horrible.

First of all, Nintendo funded extra advertising for the North American release of Symphonia, so the word got out to more people. There was next to no advertising for Legendia, Abyss, Phantasia, Radiant Mythology, and Vesperia.

I guess I imagined all those magazine ads then.

I think some of them even got commercials, but I could be wrong about that.

Second, you can't possibly believe that the sales are an accurate reflection of reception when something like Dawn of the New World, which I know wasn't satisfactory to a lot of fans, still sold more than every other North American Tales release aside from the original Symphonia.

Dawn of the New World's high sales is a testament to Symphonia's popularity. Most fans hated DotNW, and bought it merely because it was a direct sequel to Symphonia. It's the same thing for the FF7 compilation really. Dirge of Cerberus got low reviews, but still sold well because it was a direct sequel to FF7. All this proves is that the original games have extremely hardcore fanbases.

The fact is that several factors contributed to the game's success here, including timing, the console chosen, Nintendo's aid, etc.

The fact that it got great scores also influenced people to buy it. This is also a major factor which you cannot ignore.

No one calls Eternia Destiny 2 any longer. To avoid confusion, most fans use Destiny II if the localized name must be used since our version used the Roman numeral and the true Destiny 2 used the Arabic numeral. Regardless, though, calling the game Destiny II is all but obsolete nowadays. Even Namco Bandai of America themselves have started listing it as Eternia on buttons at talesrpg.com and other affiliated sites.

I'm unqualified to comment ont his then, as I've never played the true Destiny 2.

Lunar Eclipse · Post by **Lunar Eclipse** » Thu Sep 10, 2009 6:02 pm

brightshield wrote:Neither game is on a console devoid of worthwhile RPGs.

I disagree completely with the bold part.

And that's an opinion. I didn't personally think any of them were better than Vesperia, but Lost Odyssey sold a ton of copies worldwide for a JRPG (excluding the standardly less than stellar Japanese performance due to general XBox360 disdain over there). Blue Dragon was also quite popular. I liked Eternal Sonata, but most people didn't so much, and for all we know, that reflected poorly on Vesperia as well due to the stylistic similarities and the Namco Bandai name that was attached to both.

brightshield wrote:I know you mentioned you felt the XBox360 was RPG-starved, but it's really not considering it has Eternal Sonata, Lost Odyssey, Blue Dragon,

These were the only JRPGs to come out before Vesperia on the 360.

Infinite Undiscovery, Star Ocean 4, Enchanted Arms, The Last Remnant,

These all came out after Vesperia IIRC, so they don't count.

Mass Effect, Oblivion, Fallout 3, Fable 2,

These aren't JRPGs which is what I referring to.

Fair enough on those that came after, though you're completely wrong about Enchanted Arms (came out in 2006), plus I think Infinite Undiscovery was near enough in release date to directly compete with Vesperia. As for WRPGs, it's hardly fair to ignore them, particularly when the majority of the 360's audience is in the west, where WRPGs are often preferred. They're all in competition. You can't just ignore them because you don't like them as much.

brightshield wrote:It was even worse on the Playstation. Destiny only had to contend with Wild ARMS, and Suikoden. There were other JRPGs out, but they were practically unheard of.

Then ... please look at the sales I posted? Destiny did do well in a region where it had little competition. It sold 1.139 million plus an additional 395,000 for the remake. If you want to look at the west, it came out after Final Fantasy VII, so I can't imagine how you're coming up with the idea that it had no competition. Destiny was released on 9/30/98 while FF7 came here on 9/3/97, over a year earlier.

brightshield wrote:I agree with you. One of my points was that review scores indicate the quality of a game. My point with Twilight was that sales don't really mean much, as that series is known to be garbage.

But review scores vary quite a bit as well, both over time and between consoles. Something that would be laughed at on any other console could potentially get a great review on something like the DS. Just look at Nintendogs. So, you have to ask whether the decision to give Symphonia a higher score was based on the game with regard to the rest of the series or the game as it was perceived in that time and context. If you can think about it critically, it's obvious that the review scores aren't meant to rank the games in the series. They're meant to tell you how worthwhile a title is for a particular console, which can vary widely. Symphonia's cel shading, for instance, was probably more "accepted" on a Nintendo console than was Vesperia's on the 360. That instantly knocks Vesperia's graphic scores down a peg even though they're infinitely better than Symphonia's. Does that mean it's a worse game? No, but that means it's already behind in part of the scoring. Is Vesperia's sound worse than Symphonia's? Probably not, and the synth is definitely better. Still, Vesperia's going to get a lower score in that department because everyone expects live recorded orchestral music nowadays. That'll push Vesperia even lower. You just can't compare the review scores because there are far too many console- and time-specific factors involved. Maybe it'd be a more valid comparison if you went back and pulled out the battle, story, and characterization scores to compare, but that'd be something entirely different.

brightshield wrote:As for scores, Famitsu listed Abyss, Innocence, and Vesperia as all besting Symphonia, and Eternia, Destiny 2, and Hearts were all just one point behind it.

Famitsu is just one company. The total average is what matters.

I just feel that Famitsu does a better job of assessing the games based on series standards since they often mention how it relates to other series games in their reviews. The western reviewers don't tend to do that aside from sometimes opening with the fact that it's from the Tales series. They mostly judge them independently, which means they're subject to shifting tastes, changing expectations, and console-specific criteria.

brightshield wrote:People get ridiculous with it though. The FF6 fanbase is particularly bad with this type of thing. Like the people who claim that Sephiroth isn't extremely deep. Okay, that's a fair assessment, as he's not as deep as someone like Krelian from Xenogears. However, he's far deeper than Kefka. They say it's okay for Kefka not to have any depth... but it's a major flaw for Sephiroth to not have a lot of depth(even though he's far deeper than Kefka).

I was seeing major bias coming from Dark Fairy as well. Symphonia isn't so great because it uses lots of cliches, yet every other game in the series uses JUST AS MANY cliches. It's somehow a major flaw for Symphonia, but not even a minor flaw for some of the other games or Lunar for that matter.

I think the complaint with Symphonia is that the characters are cliches that don't really interact enough. I mean, every Tales character is more or less a walking cliche, but it's how they relate to one another that's interesting. Symphonia's interaction is about as bland as it gets, Phantasia and some of the escort titles aside. The Sylvarant troupe was okay if a bit standard, but some of the Tethe'allans were just throwaways. I mean, does Regal really ever do much aside from interact slightly with Presea regarding Alicia and do some basic things at Lezareno to help you that could've probably been easily done without him by just, y'know, talking to a non-playable president? He's a completely tacked on character and could've been removed without much consequence, and he doesn't even join in much of the fun during the skits. He might as well be an optional character like Chat or Max. Presea also doesn't do much either aside from her plot arc designed to give the extraneous Regal some minor plot relevance. Generally, there's not enough time spent on letting you get to know the characters, and it doesn't help matters that they even made two of them into zombies for a quarter or so of their playtime.

brightshield wrote:I'd either go with the Destiny or Aselia games then. Symphonia is my favorite game in the series, but Symphonia 2 was just a shameless cash-in(much like the FF7 spin-offs). Destiny is my second favorite game in the series, but I never got to play the Destiny 2. Phantasia was also pretty good. It really depends on how much I would like Destiny 2.

I should point out that there's only Aselia and Destiny, and Destiny only includes Destiny and Destiny 2, not Destiny II (Eternia). Everything else is independent.

brightshield wrote:Sadly, the main characters were all that shined in Legendia. Side characters were some of the most annoying in the series(especially Curtis), and the villains were horrible.

Er, I thought it had lots of good NPCs. Harriet was really well developed, and then you had the Oresoren, Stella, the Alcotts, Fenimore and Thyra, Walter, Musette, Curtis and Isabella (even if you didn't like them), Mimi Baker, Maurits, Csaba, Giet, Solon, and a wealth of other people who played a major role in the story. It's true that Vaclav and crew were pretty boring as far as villains go, but they're also just the setup for the real conflict.

brightshield wrote:I guess I imagined all those magazine ads then.

I think some of them even got commercials, but I could be wrong about that.

There were very few basic magazine ads as well as some (poorly crafted) ad banners on gaming websites. That's been the extent of the advertising for every game since Symphonia. Symphonia (and Dawn, for that matter), got major articles in Nintendo Power and a better budget for online and print advertising. There've been no commercials for any of the games, so I don't know where you're getting that from. Or, well, wait. I take that back. There was supposedly one that ran for Vesperia that I never saw, and at the official Tales forums, we only had about three total sightings of it, all very late at night during some anime television programming. Of course, Vesperia was slighted in several other ways as it never even received an official website, and the talesrpg.com link displayed in the ads (which was a series portal rather than an actual site) didn't even go live until months after the release.

brightshield wrote:Dawn of the New World's high sales is a testament to Symphonia's popularity. Most fans hated DotNW, and bought it merely because it was a direct sequel to Symphonia. It's the same thing for the FF7 compilation really. Dirge of Cerberus got low reviews, but still sold well because it was a direct sequel to FF7. All this proves is that the original games have extremely hardcore fanbases.

I'm not denying that it has a hardcore fanbase. I agree with that. I just don't think you can sit there and say that it's obviously the best in the series because of sales and an average of review scores sampled from different times on different consoles. They're not meant to compare the series entries.

brightshield wrote:The fact that it got great scores also influenced people to buy it. This is also a major factor which you cannot ignore.

Vesperia's average North American scores are only very slightly lower, though I don't deny that reviews have an affect. I still don't see what that has to do with pushing the actual quality of the game over that of others in the series. I've already addressed how the review scores themselves can be skewed, so I don't really see it a consequential.

brightshield · Post by **brightshield** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 3:59 pm

And that's an opinion. I didn't personally think any of them were better than Vesperia, but Lost Odyssey sold a ton of copies worldwide for a JRPG (excluding the standardly less than stellar Japanese performance due to general XBox360 disdain over there). Blue Dragon was also quite popular.

They may have sold more but Vesperia beat them in review scores.

Vesperia = 82/100
Lost Odyssey = 79/100
Blue Dragon = 77/100

I liked Eternal Sonata, but most people didn't so much,

I hated that game. One of the worst stories I've ever seen in an RPG. Hell, I prefer the story of Dragon Quest 1...

Fair enough on those that came after, though you're completely wrong about Enchanted Arms (came out in 2006),

You're right about this. My mistake.

plus I think Infinite Undiscovery was near enough in release date to directly compete with Vesperia.

That actually worked to the disadvantage of Infinite Undiscovery though. Vesperia was coming out sooner and got higher review scores, so lots of people ignored infinite Undiscovery.

As for WRPGs, it's hardly fair to ignore them, particularly when the majority of the 360's audience is in the west, where WRPGs are often preferred. They're all in competition. You can't just ignore them because you don't like them as much.

I'm ignoring them since they're a different style of RPG, and usually appeal to a different audience.

If you want to look at the west, it came out after Final Fantasy VII, so I can't imagine how you're coming up with the idea that it had no competition. Destiny was released on 9/30/98 while FF7 came here on 9/3/97, over a year earlier.

Really? I was under the impression that Destiny came early out early 97. Still, most people had already played FF7 over a year later. So the only real competition Destiny had was Xenogears(which was a much better RPG), Final Fantasy Tactics(which really shouldn't even count since it's a strategy RPG), and Star Ocean 2.

Is Vesperia's sound worse than Symphonia's?

The music is of higher sound quality at the very least. The voice acting was vastly superior in Symphonia though.

You just can't compare the review scores because there are far too many console- and time-specific factors involved.

I get what your saying, but that actually works to Symphonia's disadvantage in some ways as well.

I just feel that Famitsu does a better job of assessing the games based on series standards since they often mention how it relates to other series games in their reviews. The western reviewers don't tend to do that aside from sometimes opening with the fact that it's from the Tales series. They mostly judge them independently, which means they're subject to shifting tastes, changing expectations, and console-specific criteria.

Famitsu is a complete joke though. They actually believe that FF12 is the best FF, and that Dragon Quest 9 is the best Dragon Quest...

I think the complaint with Symphonia is that the characters are cliches that don't really interact enough. I mean, every Tales character is more or less a walking cliche, but it's how they relate to one another that's interesting. Symphonia's interaction is about as bland as it gets, Phantasia and some of the escort titles aside.

lol, I find this funny. Sure Symphonia might not have the greatest character interaction of all time, but it's easily on par with the other games in the series. Symphonia, Abyss, and Vesperia are at the same level in this regard. Destiny, Eternia, and Phantasia are all weaker than the three I mentioned before. Legendia had the best character interaction in the series no doubt. It's just unfortunate that this came at the cost of the plot.

I should point out that there's only Aselia and Destiny, and Destiny only includes Destiny and Destiny 2, not Destiny II (Eternia). Everything else is independent.

I guess I have to go with Aselia for now then, since I never played Destiny 2.

Er, I thought it had lots of good NPCs. Harriet was really well developed,

Harriet was the single most annoying character since Eiko from FF9...

and then you had the Oresoren, Stella, the Alcotts, Fenimore and Thyra, Walter, Musette, Curtis and Isabella (even if you didn't like them), Mimi Baker, Maurits, Csaba, Giet, Solon, and a wealth of other people who played a major role in the story.

Out of these people, I particularly hated Walter(wannabe badass), Fenimore, and Curtis(lets all sing a douchebag style song every 5 minutes). I liked Stella and didn't mind Mimi though.

Vesperia's average North American scores are only very slightly lower

Symphonia = 86/100
Vesperia = 82/100

I wouldn't call that "very slightly lower".

Lunar Eclipse · Post by **Lunar Eclipse** » Mon Sep 14, 2009 6:31 pm

I'm not sure why you entirely ignored my argument about why review scores aren't dependable for comparing games in a series and only picked out a few out of context quotes, but let me reiterate my main point. The scores aren't comparable because they rely not only upon the game itself but also upon many console- and time-specific factors. As an actual example, let's look at the score breakdown from IGN for both Vesperia and Symphonia:

Presentation: Vesperia: 8.0 / Symphonia: 8.0
They got an equal score in the department of overall feel. They're in the same series from the same development team, so liking the general vibe of both games about the same is to be expected here.

Graphics: Vesperia: 7.5 / Symphonia: 8.0
Vesperia gets points deducted for being "drab" with "washed out" FMVs. Symphonia is called amazing with a minor deduction for the hideous overworld. This is one of the time-dependent factors I'm talking about. Vesperia would get praise beyond anything you'd ever seen if it were on the GameCube, and I'd wager that Graces, which uses a similar style, will get higher marks when it crops up on the Wii. I think both looked great for the time. It's just that the cel shaded style isn't forgiven as much on the 360. This isn't a fair part of the comparison and shouldn't be a factor in comparing the two games, which is part of what you're doing when you use review scores to substantiate your claim that Symphonia is "the best".

Sound: Vesperia: 9.0 / Symphonia: 7.0
I'm pleasantly surprised that they saw the light here. No need to comment, really. The Symphonia orchestration is just horrid, and the VA, while very good, isn't quite as good as Vesperia, I think.

Gameplay: Vesperia: 8.5 / Symphonia: 9.0
You yourself said that the gameplay in Vesperia is better, and it's certainly improved since Symphonia. There's no denying that. However, the scores dropped here, perhaps due to the 360 having a glut of real-time combat or something like that. Not sure what the cause is, but Symphonia's multi-line LMBS is certainly rougher than Vesperia's.

Lasting Appeal: Vesperia: 8.5 / Symphonia: 9.0
The writer for Symphonia's noted only that it's 80 hours, and thus has "lasting" appeal. If length is all you need, then they should be more or less equal. The writer for Vesperia's at least noted the EX new game feature, which is in both, but more appealing in Vesperia since there are actually extra things to do in Vesperia either post-game or on a second play (coliseum cameos, bonus dungeon, etc.). I suppose Symphonia's one saving grace here might be the multiple Flanoir scenes plus the optional Kratos route, so I'd probably make it even, with points to Vesperia for better GRADE options and extra content that can only be accessed with a clear file and points to Symphonia for the alternate Flanoir events.

Overall, I don't think it's fair to say from a review like this that they ended up enjoying Symphonia 0.3 points more than Vesperia. Plus, the Symphonia writer is an actual fan of the series, who played Symphonia in both English and Japanese whereas the Vesperia reviewer seems to be just a normal reviewer with no specific attachments to the game. I mean, both are entitled to their opinions, but seriously, read both and tell me how Symphonia's established as "better" by the review. It just doesn't happen, and the vast majority of the review categories will have shifting scales based on the console.

brightshield wrote:Really? I was under the impression that Destiny came early out early 97. Still, most people had already played FF7 over a year later. So the only real competition Destiny had was Xenogears(which was a much better RPG), Final Fantasy Tactics(which really shouldn't even count since it's a strategy RPG), and Star Ocean 2.

The "only" competition? All three of those were massive competition. o_O I never even said the original Destiny was all that great, just that it got buried in a bunch of other high-quality RPGs, many of which were high profile Square releases that rode on the success of Final Fantasy 7.

brightshield wrote:The music is of higher sound quality at the very least. The voice acting was vastly superior in Symphonia though.

I can't say I agree. I think they're at least equal depending upon your VA preferences, but I thought Vesperia was the first localized game in the series to perfectly capture each character with the casting, plus I've always preferred Peter Garza's voice direction to Nao Higo's, which often seems wooden.

brightshield wrote:Famitsu is a complete joke though. They actually believe that FF12 is the best FF, and that Dragon Quest 9 is the best Dragon Quest...

Only recently has it become a major problem, though I guess it's consequently not fair to use their assessments of Vesperia, Hearts, and Innocence in that case. I still think the older review scores have stood up well.

brightshield wrote:lol, I find this funny. Sure Symphonia might not have the greatest character interaction of all time, but it's easily on par with the other games in the series. Symphonia, Abyss, and Vesperia are at the same level in this regard. Destiny, Eternia, and Phantasia are all weaker than the three I mentioned before. Legendia had the best character interaction in the series no doubt. It's just unfortunate that this came at the cost of the plot.

I feel like you said it yourself when you started listing the Symphonia characters separately as their own little cliches a bit earlier in the topic. They tend to stand on their own throughout the entire game instead of interacting with one another for an interesting mix. Of course, that's totally my opinion. If the cast resonated with you, they just did. That's all there is to it. However, if we could go back to the original intent of my posts, your opinion plus some review scores that are skewed because of the time of the release don't prove definitively that it's the best game in the series.

brightshield wrote:Vesperia's average North American scores are only very slightly lower

Symphonia = 86/100
Vesperia = 82/100

I wouldn't call that "very slightly lower".

It's pretty slight when you consider how many review sites are scoring on 10- and 5-point scales. Not many are going to put up a score out of 100 with a 4-point difference.

Benevolent_Ghaleon · Post by **Benevolent_Ghaleon** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:20 pm

Lunar Eclipse wrote:And that's an opinion.

How profound.

brightshield · Post by **brightshield** » Tue Sep 15, 2009 3:25 pm

Graphics: Vesperia: 7.5 / Symphonia: 8.0
Vesperia gets points deducted for being "drab" with "washed out" FMVs. Symphonia is called amazing with a minor deduction for the hideous overworld. This is one of the time-dependent factors I'm talking about.

I agree. Graphics will always improve. However, Symphonia's graphics were more impressive for their time.

Vesperia would get praise beyond anything you'd ever seen if it were on the GameCube, and I'd wager that Graces, which uses a similar style, will get higher marks when it crops up on the Wii. I think both looked great for the time.

It would be praised highly in graphics no doubt. However, that's not a fair comparison. My point with graphics before was that Symphonia looked good on the Gamecube. It was easily one of the better looking cell shaded games on the console. While Destiny and Eternia were outdated and unimpressive on the PS1, especially Eternia. Of course, I'm not saying that Symphonia is technically more impressive than Vesperia graphic-wise.

It's just that the cel shaded style isn't forgiven as much on the 360.

Cell shading is accepted on the 360. Eternal Sonata looked beautiful(which I hate to admit since I can't stand the game). The problem is that Vesperia came out after that game, but didn't look anywhere near as good.

This isn't a fair part of the comparison and shouldn't be a factor in comparing the two games, which is part of what you're doing when you use review scores to substantiate your claim that Symphonia is "the best".

Symphonia looked great for a Gamecube game though. Vesperia looked slightly above average on the 360.

I'm pleasantly surprised that they saw the light here. No need to comment, really. The Symphonia orchestration is just horrid,

The sound quality is definitely better on the 360, but the actual music was fairly unmemorable in comparison to Symphonia. I mean come on, who can forget Lloyd's theme, Colette's theme, Sheena's theme, Krato's theme etc.

and the VA, while very good, isn't quite as good as Vesperia, I think.

This couldn't be more false. Symphonia has some of the biggest names in the industry providing voices. Cam Clarke, Kari Wahlgren, Tara Strong, James Arnold Taylor, Jennifer Hale, Crispin Freeman etc. Troy Baker is good in Vesperia, as is Michelle Ruff. No one else is even in the same league as the people I mentioned. Hell, I'd go as far as to say that NO ONE in Symphonia itself is even slightly on par with Cam.

You yourself said that the gameplay in Vesperia is better, and it's certainly improved since Symphonia.

I never said this at all. Gameplay-wise Symphonia is the best in the series. It just doesn't have the best battle system. It's got by far the best dungeons in the series, with some great puzzles. Not to mention that the combat is quicker in Symphonia than it is in Vesperia. Vesperia also seems to suffer from a slight lag during combat. I'll concede that Abyss has a better battle system than Symphonia, but Vesperia is more or less on par with it, due to the problems I mentioned. So overall the battle systems are about equal(I still prefer Symphonia's since I like speed more than the free run feature), but the dungeons are vastly superior in Symphonia. So yeah, I'd definitely say that Symphonia has much better over all game play.

Symphonia's multi-line LMBS is certainly rougher than Vesperia's.

It's also faster and has no lag.

I mean, both are entitled to their opinions, but seriously, read both and tell me how Symphonia's established as "better" by the review.

Again, I'm not talking about any review in particular, just the overall average. I'm sure I could find plenty of reviews that say that Symphonia is the best, and plenty of reviews that go against this idea. The overall average is what determines how good a game is though.

The "only" competition? All three of those were massive competition. o_O I never even said the original Destiny was all that great, just that it got buried in a bunch of other high-quality RPGs, many of which were high profile Square releases that rode on the success of Final Fantasy 7.

Xenogears and FFT didn't sell that well on their initial release though. They got re-released due to fan demand, because word of their quality spread. So yeah, these two games were originally not very big competition. Star Ocean 2 was also an unknown game.

I can't say I agree. I think they're at least equal depending upon your VA preferences

I guess I just prefer higher quality actors then. As I said, Symphonia used much better actors. Clearly more money was put into the VA than any other game in the series.

Only recently has it become a major problem, though I guess it's consequently not fair to use their assessments of Vesperia, Hearts, and Innocence in that case. I still think the older review scores have stood up well.

Yeah, the new reviews are just bad jokes. They've become as bad as Gamespot. I still crack up at the thought of Crisis Core getting a 9/10. I mean I'm a big FF7 fan myself, but even I wouldn't go any higher than a 6/10 for Crisis Core...

I feel like you said it yourself when you started listing the Symphonia characters separately as their own little cliches a bit earlier in the topic.

I could do the exact same thing for any other game in the series...

They tend to stand on their own throughout the entire game instead of interacting with one another for an interesting mix. Of course, that's totally my opinion.

The characters are constantly interacting. How good it was is entirely your opinion, but I find it hard to believe that it was inferior to Vesperia or Abyss, and it's light years better Destiny, Eternia, or Phantasia. I'll still grant you Legendia as having superior interaction, but it's kind of hard to beat a game that dedicates it's entire second half to character quests.

It's pretty slight when you consider how many review sites are scoring on 10- and 5-point scales. Not many are going to put up a score out of 100 with a 4-point difference

It's not a huge difference, but it's not really slight either(it's the difference between a B and a B+).

Lunar Threads

Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Re: Just got Tales of Symphonia 2. A rant.

Who is online