Dyne and Althena (Spoilers)

[NallOne]

This is just something I found interesting since I've noticed quite a few people around these boards see Althena and Dyne as sharing a love of humanity rather than having a romantic relationship, and usually I agree with that. I saw something last night though that probably is old news, but I felt the need to bring it up anyway.

So I was playing through SSSC some more last night when I got to Lyton. Now what I am wondering is how did Dyne get access to the Blue Dragon Shrine? The people of Lyton clearly say that it can only be summoned when two people who are in love sing. One of the NPCs even says "I wonder who Dyne sang with". (Or something to that effect)

Basically, my question is: Was it Althena who Dyne sang with, and if so does that mean they were more in love than I've been led to believe? If not, then who did Dyne sing with? Did he have some 'other love' that there is never any mention of?

I really want a Four Heroes game, now.

Sorry if this has been discussed in the past. I just found it interesting and it got me thinking.

[Angelalex242]

...You have a point.

Maybe my theory isn't so off the wall after all.

[phyco126]

Oh come now, he totally sang with Ghaleon! Why do you think Ghaleon was so mad when Dyne chose Althena?

[Sonic#]

He could've also sang with Lemia. Or Mel. XD

I don't think that Dyne could've been singing with Althena. He wasn't dragonmaster at that point, and couldn't have known her except by reputation. He could've appealed to the general feelings in his heart, and had Althena respond, I suppose, but... I don't know.

Of course, it didn't have to be Dyne who opened it. Could've been any combination of others, or even just random villager A and B whose child Dyne saved from the river.

[drumlord]

Or maybe the last Dragonmaster before him forgot to close the door on the way out

[Kizyr]

There wasn't any indicated rebirth of Althena then, so I don't see how he could've been singing with Althena, or any incarnation thereof. Besides which, it wouldn't have to have been Dyne singing--could have easily been Lemia and someone else, for instance.

Plus which, the locations of the dragons change over the years. So even if the Blue Dragon remains as the protector over Lyton, it might not always be in the shrine under their lake. KF

[NallOne]

There wasn't any indicated rebirth of Althena then, so I don't see how he could've been singing with Althena, or any incarnation thereof. Besides which, it wouldn't have to have been Dyne singing--could have easily been Lemia and someone else, for instance.

You're all right about that. It didn't even occur to me that anyone other than the Dragonmaster (Well, soon to be Dragonmaster) would be the one(s) to open it. XD My bad..

Plus which, the locations of the dragons change over the years. So even if the Blue Dragon remains as the protector over Lyton, it might not always be in the shrine under their lake. KF

I assumed the same means were used to meet the Blue Dragon since the NPC who wonders who Dyne must have sang with also mentions that is has been a long time since the last Dragonmaster came and summoned the Shrine.

The main reason I also assumed it was Dyne who sang was because that NPC's comments seemed as though he was rather certain it was Dyne, just not so certain about who he shared the song with. So blame that NPC for my assumptions!

I wish I had payed attention to exact quotes for him. I think I'll take a hint from Alunissage and start taking notes. My closest save to Lyton is in Damon's Spire though. >_<

[Angelalex242]

...say. Is Ghaleon Mia's Father?

...Maybe Ghaleon and Lemia did the singing?

Or I'm smoking my usual good stuff...

[NallOne]

...say. Is Ghaleon Mia's Father?

...Maybe Ghaleon and Lemia did the singing?

Or I'm smoking my usual good stuff...

I can't really remember any mention of Mia's father at the moment, but I've always felt he was. The only real hole in that idea is that Mia doesn't show any signs of being Half-Mazoku - Neither physically nor magically. (Although I suppose she could have turned out predominately human. I'm not familiar with genetics.) I'd say it is a lot more believable that Ghaleon is her father when you go by TSS - They seemed a lot 'closer' in that than in SSSC. At least to me, anyway. One thing I liked in TSS was that Mia actually called out for her "Papa" at one point. (I believe it was in the prairie if I'm not mistaken?) Not to mention Ghaleon didn't seem very close to anyone in SSSC. Save Dyne, I suppose.

When you think about it there is a chance that NOBODY knows who Mia's father is outside of Lemia. Men aren't very important in Vane's chain of command, the women are. So the fathers are probably considered insignificant. I seem to remember some scenes in the Vheen Manga that actually show one of the Ausa's parents (Maybe Lemia's? Or Lemia's mother?) Of course it might not have even been her parents. I haven't looked at the scans in AGES and I can't read what's going on anyway.

The NPC makes it seem pretty clear that Dyne did the singing, but I doubt he would have sung with Lemia. I don't know. I'd rather not speculate too much on it. I just found that bit to be interesting. Perhaps Ghaleon and Lemia were the ones who sang though. I wouldn't mind if that was the case.

[Angelalex242]

Well, Mia's got significantly more power then Nash. Poor old Nash.

And she has two elements instead of just one.

And down the road of evolution somewhere, the Ausa line developed Catastrophe...that omnielemental spell could've been born of Ghaleon's genes in the Ausa line.

Catastrophe, however, is the only spell 'worthy' of Ghaleon, so it's slim evidence. But it's some.

[NallOne]

Well, Mia's got significantly more power then Nash. Poor old Nash.

And she has two elements instead of just one.

And down the road of evolution somewhere, the Ausa line developed Catastrophe...that omnielemental spell could've been born of Ghaleon's genes in the Ausa line.

Catastrophe, however, is the only spell 'worthy' of Ghaleon, so it's slim evidence. But it's some.

The Ausas are known for their powerful magical abilities and Mia is no exception, but I don't really think she holds a candle to the Mazoku. As far as Catastrophe...I think that's a mighty big stretch and just pulling at straws. Again, the Ausas are known for being powerful in their own right. That doesn't mean they have Mazoku in their bloodline now. (It doesn't mean they don't either, of course.)

I won't even comment on Nash very much. He wasn't exactly known for his magical abilities. At least not in SSSC. (I can hardly remember much of TSS Nash for some reason.) Didn't you notice how everybody was surprised that Nash of all people was selected to work so closely with Ghaleon? I was always given the impression that Nash's bark was bigger than his lightning bolts.

[Alunissage]

The singing thing is just trying to cover another weakness in the transition from TSS to SSSC. The NPC doesn't know Dyne sang (after all, Alex didn't -- he played); he's just going off his assumption that it would always be the same key to get to the dragon and therefore Dyne must've done so as well. For all we know Mel's future wife might have been travelling with them and they did the singing...if singing were done.

Mia does call out for Papa when she's sick in the Prairie in TSS. I think that point makes it fairly definitive that Ghaleon cannot be her father and Dyne is very unlikely to be, since she knew someone enough to call him Papa but doesn't have any particular reaction to or special treatment of Ghaleon and Laike beyond mentioning that Ghaleon used to play with her when she was little. This would fit in with Ghaleon's fondness of Nia in the Vheen manga. I think it most likely that Lemia was widowed when Mia was young.

The Vheen manga does show at least one Ausa husband/father in the generations between Nia's mother and Lemia's mother, perhaps Lemia's grandfather. Each generation of Ausas saw him at least once and clearly were fond of him, as they're shown writing to him. Possibly it was only Nia doing the writing, but I think there was another one in between who was. I don't think that's anything to base a relationship between Lemia and him on, though; he'd be all too aware of the short mortal lifespan after watching the little girl he knew when he was a teenager grow old and die when he was still a young adult. Rebecca commented in her translation notes on the manga that she thought it made a half-decent case for Dyne being Mia's father because of the chemistry (stupid term) between him and Lemia, but as I said, I don't really see it because she doesn't recognize him. I think that if he and Lemia were that close he'd at least have dropped by, but there isn't any indication that he ever returns to Vane (not surprising given that he has no magic). That goes back to the question of whether Lemia and Mel knew what happened to Dyne, though; they clearly do in Legend, since they're shown in the flashback of Althena's rebirth, but it's unknown in the other games.

Re magic, in TSS Nash had only thunder magic -- about twelve spells named Thunder Whatever. However, I think he's more likely to be considered actually powerful in that game than in SSSC...not sure, though. On the other hand, Nash has a wider variety of types of spells in SSSC than Mia does; she has three attacks (x2) and two stat builders, while he has conditions. For the life of me I don't remember what they all were. Mia's limited spells in SSSC are obviously based on Lemina's in EB, but she doesn't have Lemina's additional Mystic spells.

[NallOne]

I'm not ignoring everything else, but I'm having a coughing fit and I'll probably reply later when I have more time. So I thought I'd respond to the part that takes the least amount of thought on my part.

On the other hand, Nash has a wider variety of types of spells in SSSC than Mia does; she has three attacks (x2) and two stat builders, while he has conditions. For the life of me I don't remember what they all were.

Spark Ball (Paralysis), Sleep (Sleep..), Confusion (Confuses..), Magic Box (Seals Spells), and I can't remember what the stone spell was called. I think it might have just been "Stone" as well.

[GhaleonOne]

In all of the RPing Althena's Court Online (which makes up a majority of the core regulars on these boards) did, Ghaleon was Mia's father. In fact, I played that part, and MiaOne played the part of Mia. But that was nothing more than creative liscense. At the time, it seemed like a good point, but as Alunissage mentioned, at least with the TSS line, the bit about Mia calling out to "Papa" kinda throws the idea out the window. I'd like to think Ghaleon was a sort of adoptive father/uncle type in many ways, based on Mia remembering Ghaleon from when she was little. In fact, in addition to Alunissage mentioning Ghaleon playing with her, didn't she also say he picked her flowers when she was little? This was said up in the Grindery where all the fairies were. It was always such a stark contrast, and added even more to how much Ghaleon had become bitter over the years.

Edit - Forgot to comment on the magic power of the Ausa's. I'd like the think the Ausa's just became gradially more powerful through the years. I don't want to spoil what little Kiz has said from Dragon Song regarding magic use, but my guess is that magic was something very few, if any, humans could use in the early years. Vane turned into the place where magic became something humans could learn, and by TSS/SSSC, Vane was a mecca of magicians and wizards. And I know it states in EB or EBC (possibly both) that when Vane fell, the people scattered taking their knowledge of magic to the common folk, so that by EB/EBC, magic was a widespread ability. Though it does seem to suggest some humans were more adept to magic use than others (such as on Black Rose street or gaining access to either TSS/SSSC Vane or EB/EBC's Neo-Vane). My guess is the Ausa's just got more powerful in their spell casting, and Castrophe was one of the perks of that.

[Angelalex242]

Well, Nash is crippled by having A:only one element, and B:significantly less wisdom then Mia.

Then again, using Nash as a physical attacker...especially with Ghaleon's Tear so he hits all enemies is usually a better idea then using his magic.

On the other hand, Thunderbolt is a better single target attack spell then Mia's Fire and Ice single target. Mia's best spell was Flameria, an all target spell. It's just poor old Nash hasn't got the wisdom to back it up.

In the event of Dyne fathering Mia...well, heck. If Lemia doesn't recognize Laike, why would Mia? If you can fool one Ausa, you can fool 'em all.

In the event of Ghaleon NOT fathering Mia, however, why would be bother playing with her while she was little? Ghaleon's not the most playful sort in the world.

...Also, the 4 heroes story takes place far enough in the past that Luna is born at the end of it. Luna and Mia are roughly the same age.

Really, who would Lemia pick for a boyfriend if not one of her fellow Heros? Mel's off limits, he's got a girl. That leaves the wizard and the Dragonmaster. If you pair the Dragonmaster off with Althena, that leaves Ghaleon. That makes him Mia's father by process of elimination. Unless you think Lemia somehow seduced Dyne way back when.

[Kizyr]

Edit - Forgot to comment on the magic power of the Ausa's. I'd like the think the Ausa's just became gradially more powerful through the years. I don't want to spoil what little Kiz has said from Dragon Song regarding magic use, but my guess is that magic was something very few, if any, humans could use in the early years. Vane turned into the place where magic became something humans could learn, and by TSS/SSSC, Vane was a mecca of magicians and wizards. And I know it states in EB or EBC (possibly both) that when Vane fell, the people scattered taking their knowledge of magic to the common folk, so that by EB/EBC, magic was a widespread ability. Though it does seem to suggest some humans were more adept to magic use than others (such as on Black Rose street or gaining access to either TSS/SSSC Vane or EB/EBC's Neo-Vane).

Yeah, it's actually interesting seeing the availability of magic over the years. It went from being something barely in existence, to something mystical and elite, to something of common knowledge. Really, each of the three 'eras' so far in Lunar can be separated by the commonness of magic knowledge.

Humans I'd see at being the most adept at learning magic, since, even in Dragon Song, humans tend to learn far more quickly than others. Even in DnD, humans gain an extra skill point per level {^^}.

Really, who would Lemia pick for a boyfriend if not one of her fellow Heros? Mel's off limits, he's got a girl. That leaves the wizard and the Dragonmaster. If you pair the Dragonmaster off with Althena, that leaves Ghaleon. That makes him Mia's father by process of elimination. Unless you think Lemia somehow seduced Dyne way back when.

Perhaps, but your theory goes out the window once you consider that Lunar has more than three men living on the entire planet. KF

[Alunissage]

Why must you make everything sound so revoltingly common? You're trying to turn Lemia into a slut, Dyne into a deadbeat dad...do you really think so little of their characters? Boyfriend, indeed. Ugh.

No reason to saying Ghaleon's not the playful type, as you never see him before his life got shaken up. If you're going by TSS, he's not Mia's father but does bring her flowers; if you're going by SSSC then that pretty much includes the Vheen manga characterwise, where he has a brotherly friendship with Nia that probably also included flowers and such. And picking flowers for a little girl is not exactly running around tossing frisbees in any case. As I already pointed out, he has a history of friendship with the Ausas and it's not at all unlikely that this would extend to Mia just as much as any other member of the line.

And relative magic power and wisdom are pretty irrelevant. There's a difference between gameplay and story/characterization, have you noticed?

[NallOne]

I really need to get a hold of some translations for the Vheen Manga. :/

Going by what you've said in this topic Alunissage, it sounds like Ghaleon had more of a 'big brother' relationship with Nia than a fatherly one and it is possible that with each new Ausa he continued to be the 'big brother' figure. Eventually ending with Mia, of course. Am I right in saying that? Sorry if it seems like I'm just repeating what you said. I'm interested and want to make sure I understand clearly before I'm believing the wrong thing or something equally unfavorable.

As far as Angelalex's comments on Lemia...that's assuming (as was already pointed out) that Dyne, Mel, and Ghaleon are the only possible Fathers. While it would be interesting for Mia's father to be somebody we're familiar with (and I still love the idea of it being Ghaleon), it is just as if not more likely it is just some random Vane citizen who Lemia fancied.

If it was Dyne I honestly think as Laike would have shown a bit more interest in Mia than he did.

[Angelalex242]

Yeah, but does Random Vane Citizen A really make for a good story?

On the other hand, there's a big long list of RPG Cliches...and one of them is "Luke, I am your tedious overused plot device."

...If Ghaleon was Mia's father, the cliche list would've suggested a Darth Vader moment on poor Mia. And that perhaps Mia should've been the one he tempted to the Dark Side rather then Nash.

As for stats vs. Plot. Well, most sensible programmers try to make the two match as much as they can. These games are no exception. If Mia's a more powerful story wizard then Nash, her stats should reflect that...and they do.

[drumlord]

Yeah, but does Random Vane Citizen A really make for a good story?

That reasoning doesn't mean that one of the characters mentioned in the game has to be her father. Her father is simply not discussed. Her grandparents were also not discussed, nor were the possibility of most of the characters having siblings, or some of the character's own parents. Sometimes things aren't mentioned in stories because they simply wouldn't be interesting.